$1100 A/C Line!!!?

DrBoost wrote:

Ian F wrote:

dculberson wrote: Don't go quoting tools, etc - that's completely outside the issue. If you want to count it that way, a lawyer could say "well, I have $200k in schooling, so I get to bill you more hours than I actually work." Doesn't make it right.

I disagree. The cost of schooling and equipment to do a job does and should play a part in the billing rate. To claim otherwise makes no sense whatsoever. It's not like that education or those tools were free.

I hear you brother. So, dculberson takes a lump of aluminum to a machine shop to have a bracket made he should only pay for the few minutes the operator spends setting up the CNC? That machine could easily cost $250,000 dollars.

Werd. I have to explain that at least a few times a weekend when I'm doing tires at the track.

"Why am I paying $80 for that, it only took you 15 minutes?" "Well, sir, those machines aren't cheap."

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: To repair the rear a/c in my Durango is $3000. I found that out before I bought mine and that was two quotes from two different shops. I was the one who got the quotes for a customer because we didn't do a/c work at my shop. When I got the same quote at the second shop, I asked why it was so much, they said labor.

It might be an education to look at the repair procedure. I'm understanding that to replace the rear a/c line on a Suburban you have to drop the frame as the line is routed between the body and the frame. And the line, BTW, is approx 8' long...

If it's an aluminum line it could be welded up.

Speaking from the flat rate mechanic, I averaged 23hrs for 40 hours standing there. IF I got 30, I was ecstatic! This even included the cake jobs like Ram blend doors that might take 15min for 1.4hrs warranty time and 6.5 hrs customer pay. My hours were way less because I got stuck being the ONLY Chrysler warranty-able tech they had compared to three GM techs and they only worked on GM. When Chrysler says I can swap a LX bodied 5.7 in 8.6hrs warranty time and in reality takes 10.5-12hrs, who is being screwed? Oh and do it twice to the same vehicle. The first reman locked up solid in 3 miles.

If someone is turning 100hrs they are fleecing people for unneeded services and/or being taken advantage of from crooked service writers. Remember, the service writer is on commission too! 60-80hrs is believable, 100 is not. There are multiple services that can be done at once. I can do a 44k service along with a PS flush with the tool hooked up to do a brake flush. That was 4.5hrs of billable service time that was done in about 1hr real time.

Also don't forget about, what I call, collateral parts replacement. I have done repairs under warranty, that are now CP, and will require additional parts to fix due to the age now of the vehicle. I can't count the number of rear evaporators that needed replacement because the two T20 bolts froze into the H-block in Caravans. Until Chrysler released the $80 service part H-block, you are stuck putting in a $500 rear evap unit. Same with the Durango's. Do you want the cheap quote or the huge bill after having to replace more then the quote?

The problem would be fixed if they just quit pretending they charge by the hour. Saying it's X dollars because it takes a certain number of hours and then completing it in fewer hours without lowering the total price is nonsense.

dculberson wrote: You both completely mis-read what I said, but perhaps I wasn't clear. I mean you should not charge more *hours* for something just because you spent a lot of money to get to where you are. You can - and should - charge more *per hour*. If you re-read what I said, I compared it to a lawyer billing more hours than they actually worked, not billing more per hour. Over billing on the number of hours is considered fraud in any industry except auto repair and I don't know why. It could lose you your license to practice law, but it's industry standard if you're spinning a wrench.

I agree with you about the lawyer... but you did specifically mention tools.

As mentioned earlier, the difficulty with auto repair is the variables and unknowns... you can't say to a customer... "well... I can't give you an estimate because we can't tell you how long it will take." That's simple unacceptable. So the flat rate system is used. Often techs can beat that rate, but occasionally they don't. Often by a lot. I saw the bill for the 3rd party paid head replacement by the dealer for my A4. About $4000. However, they had the car for 8 weeks. That was 8 weeks of my car hogging up one of their bays wasn't making money - or a lot less money than the labor my car brought in.

im also gonna be honest in my opinion deal techs are not the greatest techs. why stay at a dealer getting paid on avg around hear 14 to 20 flat rate/hr when you can go to indy shops and get paid 30 to 37. i started at a dealer got tired of sitting on my ass for 75% of the time. oh yeah i got 35 hours a week at 16 and hour. i left there and went to meineke of all places got paid 32.50/flat hr to start and first week had 80 hours. its just learning tricks also look at it this way. first time i did an engine in a landrover it took me a full 2.5 days.... second one i had done in 5 hours. why because i knew exactly what i was doing. gm lower intake intakes on the 60degree 2.8 3.1 and 3.4 first time about 7 hours. now i do them in right about 2 hours. so say for instance a customer has 2 of the same cars. they come in once and i charge them 700 for an intake gasket 150 for parts and rest in labor. then the other car needs it 2 months later wtf are they gonna think when all of a sudden it costs 310? yes lawyers do charge piece work. home builders do too. plumbers charge by the hour when qouting jobs and if they finish early most still charge. or how about clutches on mazda6 v6's car eats clutches why i dunno still working on that but i only get 30k out of a clutch where as every other car ive ever had 130- 140 has been my avg..... but first time it called for 10 hours and took me 17.....(ok admittedly margahritas were involved...... now i can do that job in 2.5

MrJoshua wrote: The problem would be fixed if they just quit pretending they charge by the hour. Saying it's X dollars because it takes a certain number of hours and then completing it in fewer hours without lowering the total price is nonsense.

Thank you WalMart shopper! Don't like the price, do it your-flippin-self! Or take it elsewhere and bitch the entire time how long it is taking them or the condition of the vehicle before and after the repair for that cheap price.

Your choice.

Ranger50 wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: The problem would be fixed if they just quit pretending they charge by the hour. Saying it's X dollars because it takes a certain number of hours and then completing it in fewer hours without lowering the total price is nonsense.

Thank you WalMart shopper! Don't like the price, do it your-flippin-self! Or take it elsewhere and bitch the entire time how long it is taking them or the condition of the vehicle before and after the repair for that cheap price. Your choice.

Answer me this oh grumpy ass: How does it make any sense to you to call it an hourly rate and then charge based on a fixed price? Remove the reference to hours and people will quit bitching about getting ripped off when you do a "6 hour" job in 2 hours.

actuality most people dont bitch.... only tightasses.... the majority of people are thankful that you got it done in such a timely manner for them.

Flip side of flat rate: if the job pays, say, 2 hours and it takes 3 without a good reason like a rusted broken fastener the tech takes it in the shorts. I will say also my recent foray into having some skin pre cancers removed took ~30 minutes and the insurance company paid $775.00. That's $1550.00/hour.

The total time for my hernia surgery including the initial consultation was no more than 3 hours. My part: $1100.00. The insurance company: $3000.00. Or ~$1200.00/hour.

So I don't wanna hear no more bitchin' about technician flat rate, okay?

But here's the thing: if it started out at $1100 and dropped to $350 that sounds like some serious padding going on; a 'shotgun' repair. Maybe they were originally figuring a rear evaporator etc too. If you have ever had the pleasure of removing a corroded A/C line from an evaporator fitting, you know wherof I speak. I tend to, in that kind of case, tell the customer 'it costs X if it comes apart easy, it costs Y if it doesn't'.

I just don't take my vehicles to the shop. They may sit for months before I'm willing to touch the POS again, but I (usually) get around to it. The only thing I've ever had done at a shop has been tires.

I do also understand "book" hours. If I were in the position that I couldn't do something and I needed it done, I'd pony up for it.

The first time I swapped an axle in my Honda, it took me an easy 6 hours. Now I can do it in about 30 minutes if I have air tools.

The concept of an average time for a job being used to determine a price for the job makes sense. The poor explanation of the concept is causing some people to get upset that the price is too high because they aren't told or don't hear the "Average hours" portion of the explanation. I have heard service writers tell people it is a "X hour" job so it will $Y with no explanation of the concept. The service writer used a commonly known word incorrectly when speaking to someone unfamiliar with the lingo. If the service writer says it is a 3 hour job so it will cost $225 labor without properly explaining what that means, they deserve to catch grief when they charge $225 for two hours work. Explain the system better or change the lingo and you will get less grief.

MrJoshua wrote: Answer me this oh grumpy ass: How does it make any sense to you to call it an hourly rate and then charge based on a fixed price? Remove the reference to hours and people will quit bitching about getting ripped off when you do a "6 hour" job in 2 hours.

How am I wrong for charging someone a price based on an established labor rate, dealer posted, and another established labor time, alldata btw? So what if I can do it faster then the guy next to me. The guy next to me is charging the SAME price. I don't see the problem in trying to PROFIT based on your skill set, especially when it is customer pay. Am I supposed to charge the warranty labor time? If you think I am going to charge that "price", you are higher then a Ben Franklin kite. Also it is impossible to "menu price" your repairs. No two vehicles for the same repair are the same. I have done Caravan sway bar links in 20 min or more then the 1.2hrs I quoted. They are all the same link from the NS body to the RS body. So I can't charge more for your rusty bucket of bolts you haven't upkept for years compared to the one that is?

In reply to Ranger50:

......read the post directly before yours. When you say "hours" I think of an actual clock on a wall and you think of a book that says hours. That causes issues. The pricing doesn't bother me, you guys swearing you can call it hours and be upset that it confuses customers bothers me.

It is the same flipping thing. The labor time guide is a publication with the time to do a repair in hours. It doesn't matter if it is .5hrs or 50hrs. It is still a time measurement.

You seem upset that I can charge 3hrs work done in 2hrs. So what, I made a profit. Is there something wrong with that?

Ranger50 wrote: It is the same flipping thing. The labor time guide is a publication with the time to do a repair in hours. It doesn't matter if it is .5hrs or 50hrs. It is still a time measurement.

Hour in alldata=measurement of AVERAGE time to complete job

Hour in real world=time it takes small hand to move from one number to the next on a clock.

They don't always agree and you guys are not always clear BEFORE the job as to why this may happen.

Ranger50 wrote: You seem upset that I can charge 3hrs work done in 2hrs. So what, I made a profit. Is there something wrong with that?

Nope, that is your projection on my argument about terminology. If it is truly the average time it takes most mechanics to do the job and you do it in less that is fine with me. I understand where the rates come from, tell me them up front and we are fine.

MrJoshua wrote:

Ranger50 wrote: It is the same flipping thing. The labor time guide is a publication with the time to do a repair in hours. It doesn't matter if it is .5hrs or 50hrs. It is still a time measurement.

Hour in alldata=measurement of AVERAGE time to complete job Hour in real world=time it takes small hand to move from one number to the next on a clock. They don't always agree and you guys are not always clear BEFORE the job as to why this may happen.

Ok...................... SO AllData says 3.2hrs to fix, I quote that number of hours. It takes 5.4hrs instead, do you think I can get the additional time paid for? Yet, you want me to LOWER my price if I get it done sooner. "Thank you for shopping at WalMart."

In reply to Ranger50:

Please read what I am saying. I never said you shouldn't get paid book amount whether it took you more or less time. I am saying you cause yourself problems with customers by using terminology that confuses them.

I got bitched at so many times over the years that I developed the following method of quoting a repair price: quote the total cost of the job, parts/labor/tax. If the customer asks for a breakdown, I say X parts, Y labor, Z tax. I leave the whole flat rate thing out of it. I always have that information instantly available if the customer requests it, though.

Then there's the legal 'profession'; 'billable hours' have zero relation to reality. Billing multiple clients for the same chunk of time is pretty much the only way to get ahead. dculberson mentioned this earlier but it's pretty common.

In reply to MrJoshua:

Reread your post I quoted and replied to. No you didn't on terminology, but yes you did that I should be paid less because it was done sooner.

In reply to Ranger50:

This one?

MrJoshua Said: "The problem would be fixed if they just quit pretending they charge by the hour. Saying it's X dollars because it takes a certain number of hours and then completing it in fewer hours without lowering the total price is nonsense. "

Again-I was referencing you saying "hours", not "billable hours" or "book hours". You say hours and unless you tell them what it really means a customer will look at a clock and bitch about the price if you work to fast, or the wait if you work too slow. If you know you are going to get paid for 3 hours of labor whether you do 2 or 4 there is no reason to call it hours.

Ranger50 wrote: It is the same flipping thing. The labor time guide is a publication with the time to do a repair in hours. It doesn't matter if it is .5hrs or 50hrs. It is still a time measurement. You seem upset that I can charge 3hrs work done in 2hrs. So what, I made a profit. Is there something wrong with that?

Oh, boy. Jumping in here, where angels fear to tread. Yeah. The problem is, I pay the same for a good mechanic who can not only do it in half the time, but probably can do it better, as I would for a melon-head who is eventually gonna get pissed because he's taking longer than "the book" so half-assed slaps it back together. Personally? I'd like to know that there are people willing to pay you 3x what Joe Knucklehead's customers are willing to pay him. It's like going to a lawyer. If he sez he charges $50/h, I know I'm not gonna get nearly the expertise I will out of the guy who quotes me $200. So I can decide who I want to have working for me. BTW. Yes. I have been screwed by more mechanics than I want to remember. After going back in and fixing what somebody who called themselves a mechanic did to my cars, I've found it cheaper in the long run to buy the special tool and do it myself. So charge whatever and however you want. I know how good my work is.

MrJoshua wrote: The problem would be fixed if they just quit pretending they charge by the hour. Saying it's X dollars because it takes a certain number of hours and then completing it in fewer hours without lowering the total price is nonsense.

This is exactly what I mean. Calling 2 hours "4 hours" is not only incorrect, it's lying. Call it "labor to fix X," don't call it "4 hours."

Again, you folks getting defensive, I'm not blaming the mechanic or the techs at all, they didn't come up with the system or do the billing - we have the higher ups to thank for that. And at this point if you're an indy, you have to do it that way to be able to quote jobs and survive, but that doesn't mean I have to think it's reasonable.