Carl Heideman
Carl Heideman
9/21/20 8:29 a.m.

When ranking automotive thrills, starting an engine for the first time has to be near the top of the list. Will it start? Will it leak? Will it run well? Will it keep running? What’s that noise? Why is that so red? What’s that smell? 

If all goes well, the uncertainty soon bleeds away, leaving nothing less than euphoria as …

Read the rest of the story

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/21/20 9:32 a.m.

Great article.    With one exception that's the procedure I've been using for decades. 

The exception is that I no longer crank the engine to get oil pressure.  Performance engines always get pre-lubed just before first fire and standard engines do if it doesn't require a bunch of mucking about.  If I can't prime the system I just fire it up.  The theory is that the slow cranking without pressure wipes the pre-lube off before pressure is built up whereas starting the engine gets pressure almost instantly. 

I've never done a real study to see if my theory is correct but my street engines generally last  a couple 100k miles after first start using that technique.

One should, of course use their engine builders first fire procedure if they didn't build it themselves.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt PowerDork
9/21/20 10:24 a.m.

Good timing; I'm about to get my Dart's engine back together.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/21/20 11:48 a.m.

Is there a hack score we should be calculating like points/13? Because I am at 3/13 at best cool for any modernish car many don't apply. The check oil (I never run engines with coolant at first), make sure oil gets pressure with fuel disabled, and let it rip. If it starts and will hold at 2k on throttle and no leaks after about a minute, button the rest up and hit the dyno.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
9/21/20 12:23 p.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

I like the hack score idea. So, can anyone beat 3/13? Do we have a 2/13?

jimbbski
jimbbski SuperDork
9/21/20 12:28 p.m.

The last rebuild engine I started I had everything set up, spun the oil pump with a drill motor, installed the dist. and after adding a bit of fuel down the carb. my buddy turned the key. That engine didn't even turn over more than 1/4 revolution before firing up and running at a fast idle. Well just until the carb ran out of fuel.  I  had plumbed the mechanical fuel pump backwards!  

300zxfreak
300zxfreak Reader
9/21/20 12:34 p.m.

I have been told several times to stick a hose in my ear, but I had no idea this is what they were referring to. ...........or were they ??

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/21/20 2:12 p.m.

E36 M3, you want a hack score? TWICE I have installed engines that wouldn't complete a full revolution! As in, i put a bar on the crank, spun it some amount of degrees less than 360, installed it, and then found out it wouldn't actually make it all the way around!!! I can't remember what one of them was, but the other one was because mud daubers had crawled all the way down the intake manifold through an open intake valve and built a mud nest in the cylinder. I blew almost all of it out the spark plug hole after discovering that, but it turned out my one cranking attempt had lodged a small pebble into the quench pad of the head and the piston wouldn't go over TDC (just as well, with a rock in there..) so i ended up having to pull the head, remove pebble, smooth out that spot a bit, and reassemble.. sigh... After that i made sure to plug EVERY HOLE THAT LEADS ANYWHERE IMPORTANT. The amount of silliness that bugs have caused me on cars is just outrageous. My old turbo caravan even has a dead scorpion curled up INSIDE the fuel gauge in the instrument cluster. Country livin'...

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia SuperDork
9/21/20 2:24 p.m.

How many times have you taken a fresh motor apart and  looked at the bearings and seen a lot of junk in them even after running only a few minutes , 

Cleaning all the oil galleries  is sometimes almost impossible to do unless you take out the oil galley plugs which are a dead end for the gunk to hide , 

not sure about other engines  , but air cooled VW motors  need these pulled out and tapped for allen head plugs , 

I would also add check the oil filter that its tight.......and if possible fill it with oil before you put it on.....

Shaun
Shaun Dork
9/21/20 6:47 p.m.
Vigo (Forum Supporter) said:

E36 M3, you want a hack score? TWICE I have installed engines that wouldn't complete a full revolution! As in, i put a bar on the crank, spun it some amount of degrees less than 360, installed it, and then found out it wouldn't actually make it all the way around!!! I can't remember what one of them was, but the other one was because mud daubers had crawled all the way down the intake manifold through an open intake valve and built a mud nest in the cylinder. I blew almost all of it out the spark plug hole after discovering that, but it turned out my one cranking attempt had lodged a small pebble into the quench pad of the head and the piston wouldn't go over TDC (just as well, with a rock in there..) so i ended up having to pull the head, remove pebble, smooth out that spot a bit, and reassemble.. sigh... After that i made sure to plug EVERY HOLE THAT LEADS ANYWHERE IMPORTANT. The amount of silliness that bugs have caused me on cars is just outrageous. My old turbo caravan even has a dead scorpion curled up INSIDE the fuel gauge in the instrument cluster. Country livin'...

I just found the beginnings of a mouse apartment right up on the throttle plate of an engine that has been sitting 2 weeks.  I took the air filter box off as part of deer strike repair and wow that was fast. Every hole...no matter how short the time...

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
9/22/20 1:37 p.m.

In reply to Vigo (Forum Supporter) :

Okay, that wins. 

jfryjfry (Forum Supporter)
jfryjfry (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/22/20 11:15 p.m.

I've never heard of doing a compression check on a new engine. All of that cranking would wipe off all of the prelube.  
 

same with cranking to raise oil pressure - I've always spun the oil pump with a drill right before.  
 

and running up to 2k (or 2500 or thereabout for 20-30 mins) is only to break in flat tappet cams only, right?


And don't forget making sure the distributor isn't 180 out is a big part of the process too  

 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/23/20 6:18 a.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to Vigo (Forum Supporter) :

Okay, that wins. 

Happy for myself, but poor Vigo!

Some engines you can't spin the oil pump if it's assembled and ready to run. Also, what is a distributor? wink

P3PPY
P3PPY GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
9/23/20 9:30 a.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

It's that thing you're supposed to tighten down after a hi-perf rebuild on your beauty queen 1991 5.0 otherwise it will get just enough out of time to not work right and you'll sell the whole car at a loss because you're just done messing with it and the next week the high school kid who bought it at a steal will call and tell you that your timing was off and now it's a beast.

It's that thing.

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/23/20 11:48 a.m.
jfryjfry (Forum Supporter) said:

I've never heard of doing a compression check on a new engine. All of that cranking would wipe off all of the prelube.  
 

same with cranking to raise oil pressure - I've always spun the oil pump with a drill right before.  
 

and running up to 2k (or 2500 or thereabout for 20-30 mins) is only to break in flat tappet cams only, right?


And don't forget making sure the distributor isn't 180 out is a big part of the process too  

 

Funny, I apparently only skimmed the article.  In my head that whole section talked about a leak down test which I do on fresh engines.  I agree on the compression test.

I've got a surplus Accusump that I use to pre-lube performance engines where I can't spin the oil pump shaft.  As I said above, for stock engines I just start them.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/24/20 9:04 a.m.
P3PPY said:

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

It's that thing.

Forgot about them, haven't had one since '99!

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
9/24/20 10:43 p.m.

One time i couldn't get a 22RE i built to make oil pressure through cranking. I usually leave the spark plugs out to make the engine spin faster and put less load on the bearings, but it just.. wasn't making pressure. Took off the filter and it was dry. Yeah, i know some people fill them, i dont. Wouldn't have been able to tell it never got any oil from the pump if i had, in this case! Anyway, I ended up using a tiny tiny funnel shoved into the oil port under the filter that came up from the pump, and filled that with oil. Then i turned the engine backwards (gads!!!!!!!!) with a ratchet until the oil pump sucked it through backwards. It wouldn't go through otherwise. I figured if it wouldnt drain through and i spun it backwards id pump oil down into the pickup tube and it would hold it there as if picking up a straw out of a drink with your finger closed over the top. Anyway, did a few rounds of that until i was sure i'd back-purged the pickup tube of air, put the filter back on and cranked it... bam! Oil pressure! 

I recently rebuilt a slant six and even with the oil pump gooped up with assembly lube it still wouldn't make oil pressure at cranking speed. Did the same thing again, only this time it was easier because the oil filter adapter stands it straight up! Worked that time too.

That's the silliest thing ive had to do to get a new engine to make oil pressure.

Many engines you can actually just run the pump without cranking. I just put together a turbo 2.2 for an omni glh for someone and those drive the oil pump off the intermediate shaft which is run by the timing belt. All you have to do is spin the 18mm sprocket bolt until you get pressure, and then put the timing belt on and start it! That one made 70psi right before the harbor freight right angle drill i was using started smoking. cheeky

A long time ago i didn't want to buy an SBC priming tool so i knocked the handle off a flathead screwdriver and chucked it up in a drill and went to town. I couldn't figure out why i never got oil to the lifters/pushrods, and that's when i finally noticed that oil channel that goes across the distributor base which my screwdriver clearly didn't have.. but i won't say how long that took..

The rpm for cam break-in thing is about the fact that engines will distribute 'splash lube' in the crankcase differently at different rpms. Unless someone has run one with a hole in the side or a clear oil pan and figured out an ideal rpm to splash the most oil onto the camshaft, its probably a good idea to vary rpm up and down in the lower half of the range.  Steve Brule talked about this a little bit on a recent Engine Masters. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/11/21 1:49 p.m.

In reply to Vigo (Forum Supporter) :

V12's use a oil pump on the crankshaft. Not geared off the camshaft.  There is no easy access to it.  So prelube only.  Until you run a dry sump pump. Then you can usually figure out a way to run it if you have a big enough drill ( Milwaukee Hole Hog ) and long enough belt to get access to the pump.  
    But since I work with the oil resevore typically behind the driver. I need to pump 5 or 6 gallons through before everything is filled and pressure starts to build. 

fearlesfil
fearlesfil New Reader
2/11/21 5:54 p.m.

Retorquing Q: I've never had a head bolt move again after initial torquing. E.g. torque to 85 lb. ft., complete break in, let engine cool, retorque to 85 and nary a head bolt moved. I'm open to the idea that some loss of clamping load may have occurred during the heat cycle, head gasket seating etc. But in my experience a bolt that's been torqued requires something in excess of its previous torquing before it will rotate again. E.g after torquing to 85 lb. ft., reset the wrench to 90 and it still "clicks" without the bolt head turning. I might have to go 95 or 100 before it will move again, due to some friction. So, what do you think of these two approaches for getting accurately back to desired torque?: (Note: this assumes you are NOT using TTY torque to yield bolts which don't need retorquing and shouldn't be reused)

1) Recheck every head bolt at 85 (as in the above example) so you know if any loosened up. One at a time and per the torque sequence, just crack it loose and retorque it to 85.

2) Recheck every head bolt at 85 (as in the above example) so you know if any loosened up. One at a time and per the torque sequence, further tighten them just barely enough to see the bolt head rotate slightly.

Other ideas?

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
2/12/21 5:22 p.m.

A friend of mine lost the timing chain on a Nissan GA16i so I rebuilt it for him.  At the appropriate time, I took the fuel injector (it's a TBI motor) down to RC Engineering for a cleaning and refurb.  24 hours and 29 dollars later, I've got a perfect fuel injector.

Life conspired to keep us from getting the motor back in the car for about a month.  Once we bolted it all up, we went for a start.  All cranking and no burning.  Ignition was good, measured fuel flow was good with a new filter, plus the injector was energizing so it was a head-scratcher.  Finally, I dumped some gas in the throttle body and she fired right up.

I called RC and they wanted to take a look at the injector.  I drove it down there and they took it apart while I waited.  They told me in that one-month gap, the injector cleaning fluid had hardened inside the injector, impeding flow.  They re-cleaned it no charge and sent me on my way.  Totally freak occurrence.

Back at the car, I installed the injector and the car fired right up like I had just been in the 7-11 for two minutes and not like it was spread out all over the table for two months.

philacarguy
philacarguy New Reader
4/11/21 8:11 p.m.

I use a prelube engine oiler tank.  An engine builder lent me his once or twice, and I finally got one.  Just fill with whatever oil you use, pressurize with an air line - I put all the oil into the engine this way before I start it.  You should see at least 30 psi on the gauge without even turning over the engine.  Just pipe it into one of the oil galley plugs.  No messing with removing the distributor.  I pull the valve cover cap, and when I see oil coming out around the rockers, I'm pretty darn sure oil has made it everywhere at that point.  

Been doing this for years.  Considering I need to pre-lube an engine at least a few times a year, this is well worth it.  Once things are up and running on a fresh engine, though, the accusump serves the same purpose for starting up throughout the race season.

Many outfits sell them  - here's one.  https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Engine-Oil-Pressure-Primer-Tank-10-Quart,372549.html?sku=91095908&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=CjwKCAjwvMqDBhB8EiwA2iSmPBIk2cHCPZ6bwsuJoY9nYydmzZ8YPguVvujeKkEzDdRAtjp_gwjhQxoCu_4QAvD_BwE

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
4/12/21 7:33 a.m.
APEowner said:

Great article.    With one exception that's the procedure I've been using for decades. 

The exception is that I no longer crank the engine to get oil pressure.  Performance engines always get pre-lubed just before first fire and standard engines do if it doesn't require a bunch of mucking about.  If I can't prime the system I just fire it up.  The theory is that the slow cranking without pressure wipes the pre-lube off before pressure is built up whereas starting the engine gets pressure almost instantly. 

I've never done a real study to see if my theory is correct but my street engines generally last  a couple 100k miles after first start using that technique.

One should, of course use their engine builders first fire procedure if they didn't build it themselves.

I don't understand this. Whether you're giving fuel to the engine or not, using the starter to turn it over is still turning the crank which is turning the oil pump. The idea is that turning it over without fuel, is building up some oil pressure before the bearings see any load through the combustion cycle.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
4/12/21 1:41 p.m.

I think the worry is the super low RPM of just cranking the engine generates too little oil pressure to properly lube the engine.

I like spinning the oil pump while turning the engine manually.  Not sure it's necessary, but it seems like it would distribute the oil a little better.

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