2010 Challenge Rules---First Draft

That was our understanding last year, but numerous teams ran Widebands without budgeting them from what I understand.

Hence the ambiguity.

You guys can wait all you like- there's always been an official position. It's printed right in the rules in the first post of this thread.

If it is ON the car (in any portion of the event), it COUNTS in the budget.

Some exceptions have been made recently for non-performance safety items only. ONLY the specific items listed in the rules are exceptions.

Rule #2: said: All parts used at the event (including multiple sets of tires) shall be part of that $2010 budget.

Rule #25: said: The following safety gear can be installed on the Challenge vehicle or used by the driver without counting toward the Challenge Budget: seat belts or safety harnesss and their mounting hardware, window nets and their mounting hardware, arm restraints, fire extinguishers or fire extinguishing systems, SFI-rated scattershields, helmets, drivers suits, shoes and other personal safety gear. Rubber or steel brake lines, master cylinders and brake cylinders/calipers and brake pad linings may be replaced with stock pieces. The items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage.

I don't think I need someone "official" to read those to me...

unevolved wrote: That was our understanding last year, but numerous teams ran Widebands without budgeting them from what I understand. Hence the ambiguity.

Widebands are easy to use for tuning, then remove from the car. That would make them a TOOL, not a PART.

If they are removed from the car, they do not have to be budgeted. If they remain on the car they are supposed to be budgeted.

unevolved wrote: That was our understanding last year, but numerous teams ran Widebands without budgeting them from what I understand. Hence the ambiguity.

No ambiguity really, just an oversight.....

I'm perfectly capable of reading the rules. Thanks for your help in that matter, though, I understand my school's legitimacy is called into question in popular culture and I appreciate your attempt at accommodating the "special" college kids.

Meh. Forget I asked.

That's a bit extreme.

No one mentioned your school or your education. Just the rules.

If you are aware of people operating outside of the rules, feel free to post the $50 challenge fee. That's in the rules too.

I took the "I don't think I need someone 'official' to read those to me..." to be a little bit condescending, and issued a sarcastic reply.

This whole show is for fun, there's no point in arguing over any of this.

Your question had been answered many times. The sarcasm wasn't really called for.

I wasn't arguing. I was answering your question.

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. Like I said, I had a question about why the rules weren't enforced last year, or so it appeared. Still trying to figure out the intricacies of this competition, and there are some things I haven't been able to qualify.

Thanks for your help in clearing this up.

If you are correct on the rules not having been enforced, I'd be in agreement.

You didn't really cite a specific, so I can't really comment. "Numerous" teams ran widebands without budgeting them "from what I understand" doesn't say how many, which cars, or how clear your info was.

There have been times when mistakes in enforcement of the rules were made. If you bring them to Per's attention (respectfully), he's pretty good about making the needed changes. Sometimes stuff slips through.

But, as I understand it, the wideband should be budgeted if it is on the car. For a great team like yours (with a few extra hands, etc), removal after tuning should be an easy solution.

I did it with a Yugo.

coulda SWORE i read somewhere that a removable (not a guage) wideband (ours was sitting on the floor) was considered a tool. from the pers mouth.

i'd imagine a built-in, gauge-type would be kinda different.

I seem to remember widebands and other computer stuffs being encouraged so the mag could have cool measurements to talk about. Out of budget as well.

The wideband is considered a tool if it's a removable one...like the folks said....if it's on the car, it counts towards the budget.

So, yes, fancy aftermarket gauges count if they're mounted in the car.

we had our wideband sitting on the floor, then zipstripped to the vent,so i could see it and sort the car out at the dragstrip (we werent hooking up well enough to street tune it perfectly on the street/parking lot, and i didnt want to go fast enough to get that traction!)...

i thought we had made sure (with mag staffers) that that was fine...

glad i wasnt just heat-stroke-remembering that...haha

What is sitting on the floor? You mean the floorboards, as in attached to the (wiring of the) car?

That would be part of the car. No different than a air filter duct taped in place or a nitrous tank held down with zip ties.

A tool is not part of the car.

I used a wideband for tuning at a dragstrip prior to arrival at the Challenge. I removed it from the car and put a plug in the exhaust bung for the Challenge. Mine was a tool.

Yea, that's the way the rules are and where the spirit of the event is at.

In short, don't be a tool

At the 2001 Challenge I put the O2 gauge on a velcro watchband and wore it on my wrist. It was part of the drivers gear.... Now that's the spirit!

oh whatever.

your a ball of fun sv

redzcstandardhatch wrote: oh whatever. your a ball of fun sv

You are....

At the last two events.... i remember hearing it asked (both times to be sure) if a wideband o2 that is sitting in the car, and is just a monitor for the driver... that the car/ecu doesn't use or depend upon, counts as budget. The answer was no, it is just a tool. It only became part of the budget if it was wired into ecu dependence, ie: the car required it to run properly.

In reply to splitime:

yeah, you were there...haha

i figured somebody would back me up sometime.

SV: its just hard to depend on a tune that was done in 50 degree chicago when its 80-100 degrees in florida, with OBSCENELY different humidity.....

especially in a car like Gutty that is pushing the engine pretty hard. the past two years we actually did the drag portion of the challenge, we had to HEAVILY mod the tune. a tune that was well sorted prior to loading the car on the trailer in chicago.

i would have gladly pulled the wideband, it wouldnt have affected anything, and we were done with the tune after our first couple runs. then, it was a few runs of figuring out the driving, and we had 11s... first run was a 13.5. last was an 11.8. i couldnt believe how we battled the heat/humidty this year

Couple of thoughts to add to the commotion:

I'm sure the gutty guys did ask and get permissoin to use the wideband on the car. Adam even talked to me about it at the event. They didn't do anything wrong, so lets not turn this into a Gutty bash.

For the record, I do disagree with the ruling they were given at the event. If it's on the car at the event, it should count. By on the car, I mean hooked up and using it. My wideband was sitting on my bench at home, as was the scan tool I use to monitor knock because I couldn't fit it in my budget. If I had them down there, there's a good chance I could have sorted out my tuning issues at the drags that day which I didn't figure out until I was back at home (and then ran a 10.98 @ 128) by using those monitoring devices. Good for them for asking to use them, bad for me for not asking.

My point is that the Gutty guys didn't do anything wrong. They had a question regarding a rule, they asked and were given an answer. They did what they were supposed to and pushed the rules they were given to the limit. There's nothing wrong with that.

On another note, Adam - I'm coming for you guys next year! See you down there!

running with you was some of the most fun we've had at the dragstrip pat..

but...

if my brother and i complete our project,we might get you this year...... ooooo i'm getting excited! haha

redzcstandardhatch wrote: running with you was some of the most fun we've had at the dragstrip pat.. but... if my brother and i complete our project,we might get you this year...... ooooo i'm getting excited! haha

In the drags? Come and get me!

This is thread that I believe that everybody was referencing too when the discussion of widebands first came up for last years challenge.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/challenge-rules-and-datalogging-acquisition/14767/page1/

Per's response was:

Wow....waiting to the last minute to finagle the budget.....

Gauges count. Wideband 02 devices and sensors that are not permanently mounted or data acquisition devices do not. Oill/antifreeze/liquids do not count. spark plugs count

Not trying to keep the pot stirred but I also did remember reading that widebands were allowed without a budget hit. I just couldn't remember why or under what circumstances.

Using that logic, tell me what the difference is between a wideband O2, an EGT guage and a boost guage. None make my car run, but all three of them will help gather data to help me make the car run better. They're all tuning aids...so they are all tools and don't count in the budget?

To me, this is silly. If it's on the car, count it. The more little exceptions here and there that get made, the blurrier this all becomes.

Like I said, Gutty did nothing wrong. I disagree with the ruling.