2010 Challenge Rules---First Draft

Not to be "that guy..." But I have an LC-1 with a separate Innovate display. If i just remove the display, i don't have to take the actual o2 sensor out of the bung, right? I can't imaging the sensor garnering me any points in the concours...

Pat wrote: Using that logic, tell me what the difference is between a wideband O2, an EGT guage and a boost guage. None make my car run, but all three of them will help gather data to help me make the car run better. They're all tuning aids...so they are all tools and don't count in the budget? To me, this is silly. If it's on the car, count it. The more little exceptions here and there that get made, the blurrier this all becomes. Like I said, Gutty did nothing wrong. I disagree with the ruling.

+1

Have main battery kill switches been discussed? There's no mention in the rules.

Seems to me an NHRA approved main battery kill switch is a pure safety item in the same spirit as fire systems, window nets, etc. I'm planning on running one on our car, and that's $40 I'd rather spend elsewhere.

i would call that a pure safety item, like a window net, harness, etc. no performance benifit.

next year my car will be a MAF car, and we've used this management system on cold/hot/humid/dry, and it compensates for itself just fine. no wideband question for me.

if i have a mounted wideband in the car, which we might, i'm budgeting it .

our car next year (if its done) will basically be drag only . twin v6 civic with two t4s. (nissan FWD maxima drivetrains front/back). dead serious.

we have the v6 mounted in the rear already, and both turbo setups are built.

another car owned by luke (my partner on gutty) is the priority though. its coming here for fabrication work in a few weeks.

redzcstandardhatch wrote: i would have gladly pulled the wideband, it wouldnt have affected anything, and we were done with the tune after our first couple runs. then, it was a few runs of figuring out the driving, and we had 11s... first run was a 13.5. last was an 11.8. i couldnt believe how we battled the heat/humidty this year

Hrr.rrrr rrr mmm.. battled?!?! ...run a carb in that crap...see what is hard to believe. 4 jets swing, 4 degrees and a lotta rpm. No tools in car, just plug reading and weather gage...in the trailer.

but your cool like that andy.

i will never have the experience you seem to have...we're learning what the heat/weather do to our cars, but in the heat/humidity, we usually just dont go to the dragstrip! we changed the timing map quite a bit, changed the fuel map, changed physical timing, tire pressures, rear springs (both sets in the budget!) shock dampening, and other crap i cant remember....

redzcstandardhatch wrote: but your cool like that andy. i will never have the experience you seem to have...we're learning what the heat/weather do to our cars, but in the heat/humidity, we usually just dont go to the dragstrip! we changed the timing map quite a bit, changed the fuel map, changed physical timing, tire pressures, rear springs (both sets in the budget!) shock dampening, and other crap i cant remember....

You did great. It was fun to watch. The whole thing was great.

I look forward to bringing "tools" with me this year.

redzcstandardhatch wrote: i would call that a pure safety item, like a window net, harness, etc. no performance benifit.

+1

unevolved wrote: Have main battery kill switches been discussed? There's no mention in the rules. Seems to me an NHRA approved main battery kill switch is a pure safety item in the same spirit as fire systems, window nets, etc. I'm planning on running one on our car, and that's $40 I'd rather spend elsewhere.

I'd say its still counts in the budget, for two reasons:

1. Its not listed in the exceptions for safety equipment.

2. While the master disconnect is not a performance enhancement itself, relocating the battery usually is. Therefore, the switch is indirectly being used to improve the car's performance. I seem to recall reasoning like this has been used in the past to try to justify racing seats and harness bars, and being shot down then, too.

I wouldn't argue if the GRM staff decides its allowed, as I'd like my battery over the rear axle on the drag strip, rather than in the engine compartment.

eastsidemav wrote: I'd say its still counts in the budget, for two reasons: 1. Its not listed in the exceptions for safety equipment. 2. While the master disconnect is not a performance enhancement itself, relocating the battery usually is. Therefore, the switch is indirectly being used to improve the car's performance. I seem to recall reasoning like this has been used in the past to try to justify racing seats and harness bars, and being shot down then, too. I wouldn't argue if the GRM staff decides its allowed, as I'd like my battery over the rear axle on the drag strip, rather than in the engine compartment.

1. Exactly why it's still in my budget. I don't want to have any sketchy budgeting that could be called into question come October. I even have a receipt I print off and take to all craigslist sales.

2. How does a master kill switch help move the battery? A battery relocation would require wiring, and all our wiring is budgeted.

What's the logic behind proper seats not being budgeted? I've seen seats save a driver's life in a bad wreck on track, in my opinion they're more of a safety item than a performance enhancement.

And my car should be free because it is no longer on the road so everyone in my county is safer...and, and my slicks should be free because I'm less likely to go sideways and hit the gaurdrail, so that's safer...and, and my yellow paint should be free because people are more likely to see me and not walk out in front of me and that's safer....and, and my engine rebuild should be free because I should have new rod bolts so that I don't break a rod and sail it into the crowd and that makes it safer... and, and my alternator should be free because if my battery goes dead I may need a jump and someone could get shocked or cause a spark, so it would be safer....and, and my conuter valve should be free because my hubcap gasket is less likely to leak, and it would be safer....and, and..........if it's on the car it should count towards the budget. I do like the seatbelts and stock replacement brake parts. But that is because there have been some folks visegripping off there faulty brakes so they did not have to pay for replacement parts. Yes, 2 years in a row. But some of these requests and "justifications" are bunk. It was easier to explain when it was $200X not including belts.

wheels777 wrote: And my car should be free because it is no longer on the road so everyone in my county is safer...and, and my slicks should be free because I'm less likely to go sideways and hit the gaurdrail, so that's safer...and, and my yellow paint should be free because people are more likely to see me and not walk out in front of me and that's safer....and, and my engine rebuild should be free because I should have new rod bolts so that I don't beak a rod and sail it into the crowd and that makes it safer... and, and my alternator should be free because if my battery goes dead I may need a jump and someone could get shocked or cause a spark, so it would be safer....and, and my conuter valve should be free because my hubcap gasket is less likely to leak, and it would be safer....and, and..........if it's on the car it should count towards the budget. I do like the seatbelts and stock replacement brake parts. But that is because there have been some folks visegripping off there falty brakes so they don't have to pay for replacement parts. Yes, 2 years in a row. But some of these requests and "justifications" are bunk. It was easier to explain when it was $200X not including belts.

Amen.

Sorry. This is the first year I've had to write the budget, I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

Rrrrr...and just today...I am at the Studebaker flee market. I ran into a Land Speed Regular regular. We started talking Studes, that led to Maxton and then to GRM. Then we talked about the latest issue and he brings up the Ro-Spit. As his buddies are listening the topic goes onto the Challenge. Joe being very fmiliar with the Challenge in the earlier years has the floor. And he says, "and it's the neatest thing. They build these cars for $2000 bucks total, Ain't that right Andrew?" And, I am standing there with everyone looking at me and I am trying to explain the exception for safety equipment like belts and the bolt in roll bars and this and that. Eyes rolled and the moment was wrecked, Even Joe who was a huge fan of the Challenge just shook his head.

Unevolved , I really love this event. I really love the people. I hope it does not get too far off the original idea. Outsiders appreciated it more when the rules were simple to explain. I'm not complaining, just sharing an awkward moment from earlier tioday. Sorry, if it comes across as venting..

DILYSI Dave wrote:

wheels777 wrote: And my car should be free because it is no longer on the road so everyone in my county is safer...and, and my slicks should be free because I'm less likely to go sideways and hit the gaurdrail, so that's safer...and, and my yellow paint should be free because people are more likely to see me and not walk out in front of me and that's safer....and, and my engine rebuild should be free because I should have new rod bolts so that I don't beak a rod and sail it into the crowd and that makes it safer... and, and my alternator should be free because if my battery goes dead I may need a jump and someone could get shocked or cause a spark, so it would be safer....and, and my conuter valve should be free because my hubcap gasket is less likely to leak, and it would be safer....and, and..........if it's on the car it should count towards the budget. I do like the seatbelts and stock replacement brake parts. But that is because there have been some folks visegripping off there falty brakes so they don't have to pay for replacement parts. Yes, 2 years in a row. But some of these requests and "justifications" are bunk. It was easier to explain when it was $200X not including belts.

Amen.

That deserves another Amen.

i keep forgetting that replacement brakes, etc arent in budget... we keep putting all that stuff in.

i think we had a bunch for that too! stupid us. haha

it never ceases to amaze me how many times i've read the whole set of rules, and i forget or miss things. and its not even that big of a set of rules....nothing compared to "real" racing

redzcstandardhatch wrote: i keep forgetting that replacement brakes, etc arent in budget... we keep putting all that stuff in. i think we had a bunch for that too! stupid us. haha it never ceases to amaze me how many times i've read the whole set of rules, and i forget or miss things. and its not even that big of a set of rules....nothing compared to "real" racing

It is "real" racing. In 2006, the Datsun ran 128.71 mph when taxes and brakes still counted. Last year Pat went 129 mph. And I certainly would not call auto-xing a make believe sport, just because the premise is based on a strict budget.. Please remember, SCCA and NHRA rules are still required for competition.

Not by the rulebook, it's not. This competition allows much more modification and creativity than almost any common amateur racing series would ever allow.

Which is why we (A&M Engineering) are doing it.

Please make sure you have good safety equipment. These cars are running real fast and when things go wrong, people get real injuries. As an engineering student you should have learned about Kinetic Energy. V is squared. I hope A&M still teaches the fundimentals.

unevolved wrote: 2. How does a master kill switch help move the battery? A battery relocation would require wiring, and all our wiring is budgeted.

I think Andy covered the overall gist of things wonderfully, but figured I'd pipe in on this one part, because I actually had a "workaround" back in 2005. The NHRA requires a master disconnect if you move the battery, but if you leave the battery in the engine compartment (or trunk in the case of an E30, I guess), you don't need a kill switch. Moving the battery is usually done to enhance the car's performance, either to get better weight distribution, or in order to fit a bigger engine into the car, so if you need to add a kill switch, its probably because you did something to make the car better/faster.

In 2005 (don't know about now, haven't read the rulebook for a few years), the SCCA did not require a kill switch for a relocated battery. What we did with our CRX was run a battery box during the autocross, then removed it, and put the battery in the stock location for the drags. That way, we had a better weight distribution for each event. This year, I'm running RWD, though, so that trick won't be as helpful.

wheels777 wrote: Please make sure you have good safety equipment. These cars are running real fast and when things go wrong, people get real injuries. As an engineering student you should have learned about Kinetic Energy. V is squared. I hope A&M still teaches the fundimentals.

Safety's our top concern. I may be jumping through some hurdles now to get us there, but it's nothing compared to trying to revive a program that was forcefully shut down after a student was hurt. We're buying everything we can afford that ensures the safety of our students. Sure, it's more weight on the car, but it's something we'll just have to accept.

redzcstandardhatch wrote: oh whatever. your a ball of fun sv

I guess I'm sv.

Strange.

I make a comment, Per agrees completely with it, and I'm the bad guy.

Oh well... sorry to ruin your fun.

Hey Andy: I painted my chassis traffic yellow. Even though it can't really be seen, can I count it as a safety item? If the car ends up upside down, it will certainly be more visible, and therefore safer!

I feel like you're mocking me. Come on. There's no need for that. It's all in fun, lighten up. I'm just trying to figure out how all this is done, I don't need the old farts making fun of me for asking questions.

wheels777 wrote: ....when taxes and brakes still counted.....

Marty wrote: Oill/antifreeze/liquids do not count. spark plugs count

I've reread the rules (again) and found no mention of the above comments. So I'm wondering how accurate they are? I know about the brakes not counting this year, but this is the first I've heard about taxes. I was also planning to include all liquids in my budget.

This being my first year I'm starting to feel like there has been some clarification of certain things over the years that isn't published in the rules. Things like what's quoted above that repeat competitors have asked about and know but a newb like me is ignorantly budgeting.

I hope no one takes this as complaining because I don't intend it that way. I'm just trying to get a full understanding of what's allowed/not allowed so I can maximize my budget, as I'm sure everyone else is.

unevolved wrote: I feel like you're mocking me. Come on. There's no need for that. It's all in fun, lighten up. I'm just trying to figure out how all this is done, I don't need the old farts making fun of me for asking questions.

sometimes the old farts making fun of you is their way of nicely responding to your questions instead of the other options available.

i appreciate that you are just trying to do things right for your team because that's a responsibility you've taken on as one of your team leaders, so here's the gist: unless you know that there is absolutely no benefit to the performance/appearance of the car, the part counts. that's the spirit and you'd do better to have an interesting and ok performing car that fits the spirit, then a great car that no one really likes.