2011 Challenge Rules

Can I get this as a PDF so I can print it off without the other posts and such?

Per Schroeder wrote: The safety items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage.

2002maniac wrote: So, will this be known as the "Vorshlag rule"? Or would their scattershield/bellhousing adapter still be legal?

Hey! In the end we really did keep this bellhousing for safety reasons...

Yes, we thought we were being a bit clever by using the safety loophole to allow us to more easily use a cheaper T5 behind the LSx truck motor... but did you see how spectacularly that T5 exploded? An engineer/racer/friend of ours found a Jeep bellhousing that would have allowed this T5 to work behind the LSx family anyway, with little to no impact on our budget. Still, its not worth the safety hit to go that route, for us. And this scattershield weighed more than double that of a cast aluminum bellhousing, so how does it "add performance"?

Ranger50 wrote: I would have to hazard the guess, depends on what you are needing it for. Are you adapting a SBC to a Jatco or a Jerico? If it was a Jatco, no real advantage. The Jerico possesses oodles of advantage in this scenario. Vorshlag used an even worse F-body T5 vs a "better" standard Ford T5, so there really isn't any advantage, IMO.

Exactly... we didn't do this to be able to use some uber-transmission behind the truck 5.3L V8, far from it. We used a red-headed-step-child T5 from the Camaro V6, that nobody wants, and yes, its cheaper to get these T5s than Mustang T5s. Gearing is for crap, and its also weaker, as we saw on our 2nd drag strip run. 3rd gear went KA-BLAMMO! We effectively never got in a 1/4 mile run in (that run the car coasted to an 18 second E.T.). in the end that cleverly chosen, super cheap T5 was worth f*ck all.

Ranger50 wrote: As for the scattershield, I prefer to keep my feet intact, performance advantage or not. I just don't think they should be "zero" dollars though, maybe 10% of purchase price. I haven't seen the actual budget breakdown of the Vorshlag E30, so I am just guessing. YMMV.

Well, Per made it a zero dollar safety rule, and we used it. How to you put a "partial" value on safety gear?

Again, I am all for the safety aspect, and after seeing what broke on this car (halfshaft snapped on first dragstrip run, then the trans exploded). So lnowing what we do now we'd definitely put a scattershield on any crapcan like this making as much power, if allowed. Especially since the scattershield is filled with very used parts (clutch and pp). Had nobody ever used a scattershield in GRM $200X events before us? Really?? Not even the 10 second drag buggies?

Remember: the safety allowances in GRM Challenge are nowhere near the budget allowances that $500 Chump or LeMons cars have for safety.

In our (non-Challenge) E36 LS1 car we had good T56 transmission parts explode and ventilate a cast aluminum bellhousing, so I'm already a fan of scattershields. The trans had a vibration at 160 mph at TWS that sent part of the input shaft clean through the bellhousing and floor, luckily on the passenger side. So we have damn good reason to want a scattershield. I don't want to lose my feet or drive with that level of fear.

We're taking our $2010 E30 to the UTCC event at VIR in 2011 and according to gearing calcs it could get into "Danger Zone" speeds, so safety isn't something we're cutting corners on. Sure, it will be slow as molasses compared to most of the field, but it will still be quick enough to do some damage should anything go wrong. We are adding a 5 nozzle 5 liter fire system (safety item that's also 0 to budget, heavy, and doesn't improve performance one bit), the existing scattershield (very heavy), the existing 4-point bolt-in roll bar (+62 pounds, yet adds zero chassis stiffness), and some other safety bits we're adding this year (most of the rest is for the driver). Being safe adds more weight, and "costs" more (outside of the GRM $200X budget), but since we're using this thing for more than a 30 second autox run and a blast down the dragstrip, I (and my feet and my skin and my wife) felt it was worth it.

That being said... I hope some other $200X GRM Challenge cars can make the trek to VIR this year and join us! If enough crapcans showed up to UTCC we might even get our own class. "Low class".

Cheers, Terry Fair @ Vorshlag

Fair wrote: A bunch of truthful stuff

Seriously guys. These folks are the real thing. If you made some silly rule like that they'd probably fab up one from scratch. They are that good. I love it. How much did that bell cost anyway? I don't think they're crazy expensive. It's an awesome car - wish I had one just like it.

Rule #28: Pinchvalve must participate this year, no exceptions.

Putting that in might help convince the wife, she's a stickler for the rules.

BowtieBandit wrote: Can I get this as a PDF so I can print it off without the other posts and such?

Easy to do, but I'm not messing with the rules without permission.

The rules say a replacement dash can be made from aluminum. Is fiberglass acceptable too or is it stock or aluminum only?

tuna55 wrote: Seriously guys. These folks are the real thing. If you made some silly rule like that they'd probably fab up one from scratch. They are that good. I love it. How much did that bell cost anyway? I don't think they're crazy expensive. It's an awesome car - wish I had one just like it.

Yep, that was the original plan - we fully intended to fabricate our own custom bellhousing from scratch (from steel - so it would be safe yet allow the use of any transmission we could afford), but when I found the $0 SFI scattershield allowance in the safety rules, it was a no-brainer. I couldn't believe nobody else had used this rule before, honestly. Maybe someone had, but just didn't share everything so publicly, like we did? The QuickTime SFI scattershield we used was $539. Sure that amount stings, it came out of my pocket, but it saved us a ton of time over hand-building it from scrap steel I gladly paid that. And if you would have had a similar T56 explosion horror story as we did, you wouldn't even blink at that. How much are your feet/legs/mobility worth?

After burning 60+ hours making long tube headers from cut-up old headers, after machining each bushing for the car with a manual lathe from scrap Nylon, after burning another 1000+ hours on a couple dozen other "money saving" but "time devouring" hand-built sub-projects on this build, we were so thankful we didn't have to hand-build the bellhousing. It wasn't until after I had paid for that QT unit that an alternative, OEM bellhousing solution was found. Still, for safety's sake, I was glad we went with the QuickTime.

Fair wrote:

Ranger50 wrote: As for the scattershield, I prefer to keep my feet intact, performance advantage or not. I just don't think they should be "zero" dollars though, maybe 10% of purchase price. I haven't seen the actual budget breakdown of the Vorshlag E30, so I am just guessing. YMMV.

Well, Per made it a zero dollar safety rule, and we used it. How to you put a "partial" value on safety gear? Again, I am all for the safety aspect, and after seeing what broke on this car (halfshaft snapped on first dragstrip run, then the trans exploded). So lnowing what we do now we'd definitely put a scattershield on any crapcan like this making as much power, if allowed. Especially since the scattershield is filled with very used parts (clutch and pp). Had nobody ever used a scattershield in GRM $200X events before us? Really?? Not even the 10 second drag buggies? Remember: the safety allowances in GRM Challenge are nowhere near the budget allowances that $500 Chump or LeMons cars have for safety.

Let me clarify what I said and the intended meaning. I know there is a "governing board" giving out out of bounds pink slips on whacked out ideas that go beyond the "intent" of the rules. But I believe in the name of "safety", you can go well beyond that "intent". I know at 10.99, you need a SFI balancer. Like right now, I have a 5.7 Hemi sitting on an engine stand with truck FEAD on the front. I want to swap to the LX body FEAD because I believe the packaging in my crapcan wrapper will be better. Instead of spending precious budget on a stock LX balancer, I'll just get the ATI SFI approved balancer, claim "safety", and save the $ for something else. You could also do the exact same thing with a $2k triple disc clutch, SFI ratings kick in at 11.49. Same for aftermarket axles, 10.99. You should be using these items anyways, but for "free"?

Brian

The only free safety items in the budget are those specifically noted in the rules.

I would like to appeal to the masses for clarification on this rule.

F) Rubber or steel brake lines, master cylinders, rotors, drums, brake cylinders, calipers and brake pad linings may be replaced with new stock pieces. Original brake parts cannot be sold and then rebought to take advantage of this allowance.

I will be doing either a Aspire brake swap (from the salvage yard) or a Capri XR2 swap (from my parts car). Either one will give my Festiva larger brakes. Which swap I do will depend on what wheel bolt pattern I want to end up with.

Since I now have different brakes can I still replace rotors/drums/pads/shoes without taking the hit to my budget?

Also for the rubber/steel lines part - does that include stainless steel brake hoses?

In reply to Marty!:

You have to pay for your upgrades, but not refreshing the upgrades.

Marty! wrote: I would like to appeal to the masses for clarification on this rule. F) Rubber or steel brake lines, master cylinders, rotors, drums, brake cylinders, calipers and brake pad linings may be replaced with new stock pieces. Original brake parts cannot be sold and then rebought to take advantage of this allowance. I will be doing either a Aspire brake swap (from the salvage yard) or a Capri XR2 swap (from my parts car). Either one will give my Festiva larger brakes. Which swap I do will depend on what wheel bolt pattern I want to end up with. Since I now have different brakes can I still replace rotors/drums/pads/shoes without taking the hit to my budget? Also for the rubber/steel lines part - does that include stainless steel brake hoses?

My oddball take is that you budget replacing all the stock pieces you are upgrading. Add up all the upgrade pieces to a total price. Subtract the upgrades from the stock pieces. That is the hit to the budget for upgrades, IMO.

Brian

I now have a question.

How do you budget flash programmers/programming tunes? Clearly, it is a tool that isn't going to be left in the vehicle like a gauge or laptop. So, "zero"? I need to write out emissions junk that won't be within 20' of it more then I need to have a better tune.

Brian

I was planning on it being a "tool" but this thought has been in the back of my mind too. If it is an upgrade, my tuning setup will demolish my budget. Seems kinda silly when all is said and done, I will have a $3 chip in the ecu.

Programmers are a tool unless they are required to be in the car for the car to work during the drag and autocross runs.

I thought that some "tools" could even be on/in the car, such as a wideband that didn't feed data to the ECU or provide a readout during a run. That was my interpretation.

To me, that's the same as an oil pressure gauge or any other gauge for that matter. It is an expense of building a car, not a tool to make it work then leave it in the preverbal tool box.

I think we even got clarification from Per last year on that. Can we get it again?

That's great if it is a tool, I just don't see how it is. I will leave my wideband in if it is.

Remember, this is an editorial event. GRM wants cool/fast cars. Fast cars need safety equipment. Safety equipment is expensive, which eats budget. Eaten budget means less money to make cars fast. GRM gives safety "allowances" to make cars safer without taking a budget hit, which in turn allows them budget room to go faster. This equals better editorial.

I'm coming around to believe that I'd like the event more if we had to follow an "if it's on the car, it counts" rule system. But, it is what it is.

I am budgeting my car by that rule except for the roll cage and seatbelt.

Also, I still really need to know about the aluminum/fiberglass dash. I have a lot better access to fiberglass than aluminum and my original dash is in 30 pieces or so.

In reply to PhilStubbs:

Make a lookalike dash, paint it black, no one would really care.

That's what I figured, just wanted to ask before getting it done and showing up to race to just be told to go home. Lol

PhilStubbs wrote: I was planning on it being a "tool" but this thought has been in the back of my mind too. If it is an upgrade, my tuning setup will demolish my budget. Seems kinda silly when all is said and done, I will have a $3 chip in the ecu.

think of it as an experienced and skilled ear and flow meter to sync and adjust carbs. you dont have a meter or your ears on the carb stack while youre driving the car but the adjustments they helped make allow it to work better.

like mrjoshua said, EFI obviously now allows the computer to both monitor and adjust while running and if youre using it like that then it is part of the car and therefore budget.