$2012 Rules Question; Seats aren't safety items?

Reading through the rules I've noticed that seats are not listed as a non-budget effecting safety item. To me a seat is very much a safety item along the lines of a racing harness and helmet. I'm just curious about the reasoning behind this.

I can see how allowing "free" seats could get out of hand with people buying $2000+ carbo-titanium-kevlar-featherweight seats to save a few precious pounds. I suppose you could also argue that a well built racing seat definitely has a performance value over your average stock seat , especially bench seats.

$2012 Rules; Safety Section said: The following safety gear can be installed on the Challenge vehicle or used by the driver without counting toward the Challenge Budget: A) Seat belts or safety harnesses and their mounting hardware. B) Window nets and their mounting hardware, arm restraints. C) Fire extinguishers or fire extinguishing systems of at least a 5BC racing. D) SFI-rated scattershields and driveshaft loops. E) Helmets, driver’s suits, shoes and other personal safety gear . F) Rubber or steel brake lines, master cylinders, rotors, drums, brake cylinders, calipers and brake pad linings may be replaced with new stock pieces. Original brake parts cannot be sold and then rebought to take advantage of this allowance. G) Wheel studs and or wheel bolts can be replaced. New splined studs are highly recommended and we don’t recommend the screw-in wheel stud kits. H) Roll bars and roll cages may be added. Roll cages must be bolted (not welded) into the automobile and contained within the passenger/driver compartment. Roll bars may be welded in. A roll cage has more than five attachment points (but no more than eight) to the body or frame. Roll bars and roll cages must be padded within 6 inches of the occupants’ heads with SFI-spec high-density padding. Helmets must be worn in cars with roll bars or roll cages. Any additional bars and attachment points added to the roll bar or roll cage, or extending the bar or cage outside of the passenger compartment to the suspension pickup points, will negate this allowance and make the entire cage count toward the budget. The safety items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage.

Sounds like you answered your own question, it would be a bucket of grease on the slippery slope of cost increase.

You shouldn't need immunity to fit safe seats into the budget. Are you having trouble finding a used Kirkey?

Thursday night free beer keg /pizza might be a wash

In reply to Alan Cesar:

No, I haven't started looking for seats yet as I just sold the stock seats yesterday. I was just curious if my reasoning was correct or if someone had thought about this before.

Brand new Kirkey for scrap prices:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2011-n600-west-coast-challenger/33452/page5/#post661918

The driver's seat is a free knockoff, the passenger's was the template. Good seats don't have to cost money if you're willing to throw some elbow grease into it.

Bryce

Even if you can't fab yer own like Bryce, a used Kirkey shouldn't run you more than $50-$75 if you shop well.

If they were putting the cars on a road course I could see seats as safety but in an autox drag situation good seats are much more a performance advantage than a safety one.

I couldn't dump our Kirkey that came in the Merkur when my buddies and I got it, I ended up scrapping it for the value of aluminum because no one wanted it at $25...

I was told at a past challange that the driver lost at least 2 sec in the autocross due to sliding around in the stock seat in my 240. Found a used kirkley for 35. PO out grew it.

my sparco evo was $50 because of slight fire damage. The deals exist

I bought a $800 recaro at the junkyard once for $35 too. So yeah, I think seats just go along with the idea of how you get all the other parts to build a car that cheap.

AutoXR wrote: my sparco evo was $50 because of slight fire damage. The deals exist

Dittos on the LeMons car. It is one skanky disgusting mess of a seat, but it sure is comfy.

I don't disagree with the logic presented above.

However, the answer to the original question is that seats were included because they also equate to a performance advantage. They plant the driver tighter, which improves the speed.

The broader question of whether race seats are safer is extremely debatable. Very few Challenge teams have the engineering prowess and fabrication skill to design and install a racing seat in a manner that is safer than the factory seats. They often aren't secured well, change the relationship of the driver's head to the hard parts of the cabin, rely on questionable seat belt mounting techniques, are not designed in combination with the cage mount positions, and disable other safety features like air bags (for those cars that use them).

I firmly believe in the protection capability of a well designed and constructed cage/ seat/ harness system. But I've also seen a LOT of crap.

It would be REALLY tough for most Challengers to out-engineer the factory when it comes to safety design and construction.

I'm your other extreme. Do away with ALL of the freebies. They make the challenge less legit.

DILYSI Dave wrote: I'm your other extreme. Do away with ALL of the freebies. They make the challenge less legit.

Tend to agree, whilst safety is important, make it safe within the budget.

That is the challenge.

Scored 2 as new (to me) seats for the Rustang yesterday, one is already installed, the old seats sold for $130 more than I paid for these.

wheels777 wrote: Have you been to the Challenge? They hold the event once a year in Gainesville. You would be amazed at the tallent many of the competitors have.Some are hacks. But the larger group is very talented.

You know that I have, Andy. I've been there every year you have.

I didn't say Challengers can't do it right. Some do, and you are obviously one of them.

But as you noted, some are hacks. Without a more legit safety inspection, I don't think it would be an overall safety improvement for competitors in general (though I do think it would likely improve YOUR safety, because of the speed you will be traveling plus the build quality of your cars).

But you are the king of the swap meet heroics, and I have full confidence in your ability to include ALL of the safety equipment you need for your car within the guidelines of the event, whether or not the particular item is "free". I am quite certain you'll have the lateral restraint you need.

DAAAAAAANNNNNNGGGG the challenge is still 2 months away and people are already getting pissy with eachother? I have noticed there's no trash talking thread yet.