$2017 Challenge Concour Points and Judging

stan_d wrote: I lost faith in concourse when an unwashed stock Geo placed higher. Than the saab I stripped painted and reassembled.

Was that a product of Judge exhaustion? Was that a product of your barely tolerable personality? Was that a product of crappy bribing material?

I don't bring radical builds. I'm not good enough.

That also means that I am not necessarily on the judges' radar.

The 3 minutes I spend being judged is often the only interaction I get with the staff, which I value. They've spent some time with me whether I brought a Yugo or a contender.

I'm not a fan of judging only the top dynamic times. I have brought cars that were ONLY competitive in the Concours (intentionally).

If only the top few cars were judged, I would not bring a car.

In reply to SVreX:

But if it was optional whether you entered concours wouldn't that solve your desire to be judged by GRM STAFF?

I could foresee someone who builds an immaculately prepared and engineered car only to have the engine handgrenade when pulling it off the trailer want to enter concours even though it couldn't compete in drags/solo. Didn't that happen to the batmobile VW bus years ago?

I don't know what the right answer is but i know last year Tim, David, and Rennie looked mentally exhausted halfway through the field.

I personally never intend to bring a car that doesn't have a shot at a top finish so i would feel selfish if everyone didn't get a fair shake. I understand it's a 3 facet event and the goal is not to bring a car that dominates only one part of the whole weekend, but if someone has an insanely detailed gorgeous build that just happens to be slow as molasses because they built around a 1.1 opel kadett I don't want them getting punted on judging because they put their heart into it just like most everyone else did. At that, I also understand and have become very good friends with the guys there to "win the party" who show up for the experience. I wish I could do that but when it comes down to it I'm way too serious as soon as my slicks hit the dragstrip.

I really want a new welder, damnit!

In reply to SVreX:

What if they only judged the "ten chosen ones" for points, then wandered around and talked to everyone afterwards? It seems like part of what Mr. Nelson is getting at is that the judges are wiped out by the time they've looked over all of the cars- so if they only have to really pay attention to a few, then meander around and BS with the rest of the entrants, does that address what you like about getting to interact with the staff?

I'm just throwing out ideas and trying to understand the problem, I've only been the the challenge once so I may not really know what I'm talking about.

In reply to ¯_(ツ)_/¯:

That wouldn't make me happy.

Most of you guys are racers first. Youd rather dice the on/track rules. The Concours is a little bit of a PITA.

The Concours is where I can be most competitive, and offer magazine worthy content.

I have brought cars I knew would be slow, hoping to at least do well on the Concours.

Did you guys ever do/look into the "downtown parade/concours" thing? Works for the Lemons guys at kershaw/CMP.

Even if it wasn't dowtown, it seems like gathering all the cars in one area (host hotel?) ...maybe on registration night is better than standing with your car for an hour and a half in the FL sun to get a minute or two of judging. I understand judging fit & finish at NIGHT isn't a great idea, but maybe kill two birds with one stone;

Have competitors show up at host hotel (or wherever...The community college across the highway might be interested,) by 5PM. Judges, staff walk around parking lot, judge cars, hand out, competitors complete registration.

Just a thought. The whole thing would be way less of a nightmare if you were just hanging with fellow competitors, cracking a few (thousand) beers vs standing with your car for an hour like an idiot roasting your arse off.

I don't understand the judging for this part of the event so I don't really enjoy the scoring system. I do like walking around looking at the cars.

I do better painting cars in parking lots than bringing a beautiful car.

In reply to SVreX:

Hmm... then maybe the best answer would be different squads for different characteristics. Every car would be visited by 3 staff (or celebrity) teams, one assessing engineering, one assessing execution, and one assessing aesthetics? Might require some tweaks to the scoring format to be fair, but at least it would reduce the burden on the judges somewhat. That or just keep the current format and give the judges a few breaks to clear their heads and chug an energy drink or something.

I think part of the solution may be more judges.

If there are 50 cars to judge and only 3 judges, they've got a lot of work to do.

What if there were 9 judges, but only 3 judged each car? That would mean each judge would only have to judge 17 cars.

Judges could be randomly assigned (with each car getting a different team of judges). A staff person could follow behind to ensure consistency.

Some of these judges could be competitors. I'll volunteer.

In reply to Patrick:

Whether you get Uber competitive when the slicks hit the ground or the clay hits the hood, it's all good.

SVreX wrote: In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯: That wouldn't make me happy. Most of you guys are racers first. Youd rather dice the on/track rules. The Concours is a little bit of a PITA. The Concours is where I can be most competitive, and offer magazine worthy content. I have brought cars I knew would be slow, hoping to at least do well on the Concours.

I mentioned this on the first page... If you think you're a player (overall or concour), enter.

Judging all the cars may be why you don't get quality time, except the 3 minutes.

SVreX wrote: I think part of the solution may be more judges. If there are 50 cars to judge and only 3 judges, they've got a lot of work to do. What if there were 9 judges, but only 3 judged each car? That would mean each judge would only have to judge 17 cars. Judges could be randomly assigned (with each car getting a different team of judges). A staff person could follow behind to ensure consistency. Some of these judges could be competitors. I'll volunteer.

At least one person would do an average, and complain that judging team "A" scored all the cars higher/lower than judging team "C" GUARANTEED

I think it's subjective enough as it is.

SVreX,I understand, If they were to Divide it into 3 Groups, or even 2, then a Car could trophy In it's Selected Venue. Points are Scored in each Venue and the Idea is to do well in each, Overall Is just that. I like to look at a Trailer Queen,I like an all Origanal car Too.My Fav's are Race cars.It's ben pointed out to me Even By you that it's about the Fun,And I can Dig it. If someone wants to Scrape of the Door handles on a Luxo barge then OK I'll watch and Laff along with everbody Else. bringing a Stick to a Gun fight though isn't fair to the judges, But I have seen some Good looking Sticks,there are just some really big Guns out there, the Fiero that Jeremy used is to me a better looking Car than the Chopper,but whose to say (except him) which was more Fun,Because he also has Serious cars Too. Maybe when you come through the Gate a person could State there Intensions,Leslie has a van that could Shred the tires off with power. Too Tall Trucks /Vans and 20 foot long Luxo barges May need a class of there own,or earn there way Into the Judging.For now I'm just trying to get there.

In reply to poopshovel again:

I wasn't suggesting any "judging teams".

I was suggesting each individual judge randomly assigned to 17 cars. That would make every judging team different.

Three judges were responsible for all 50 carjudging? Add another GRM judge, split in teams of 2 and have them judge 25 cars each. Select 10 veteran participants to judge 5 cars each with the 2 GRM JUDGES.

It would Atleast cut GRM judge time in half.

Random goofy thoughts.

I'd be more inclined to trust the fairness of the judges if they were split into multiple teams that didn't judge every vehicle than I would going for an opt-out situation.

I can understand the motivation for opting out, assuming your car is not a top contender in the concours, and you'd rather just take a default score. However, that relies on competitors' self awareness. I could see a scenario where someone with a less than 50th percentile car decides to go for judging, and ends up with less than the "base" score, partially because they deserved it, but also partially because of two other factors: 1 - judge's fatigue could still happen and score could be hurt by the "anger" at having to judge less nice cars, and 2 - any "average-ish" car pitted against only the top contenders is going to suffer by comparison, and will be hard to judge properly.

Say the judges were split into two teams, who then each reviewed 50% of the competitors(with some form of blind selection), then, each judging team gave the other team a list of the top 2-3 cars they judged (without revealing their scores), which would then be re-judged by the team that hadn't judged it before. This way, you'd reduce fatigue, and in theory, the best cars would get a more thorough review.

Any attempt to get the competitors to pre-judge (perhaps give a top three list) is likely going to result in a very small number of cars garnering the vast majority of the votes and (if you can't vote for yourself) a significant number of cars receiving a 0. Unless there is some sort of adjustment or baseline score for cars with 0 votes, the concours would suddenly go back to being the most important part of the event by far, even if it carries the fewest points.

As an other possiblity, what about mandatory breaks for the judges, even if it stretches the overall time of the event a bit? Or some sort of rotation? If there a four judges, have only three of them active at a time, so each of them takes a break for a quarter of the judging time. Yes, it would mean the judging team is not the same for every car, it would not be as drastic as having completely separate groups judging cars.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem:

That's pretty much what I am suggesting.

Or something like it.

In reply to eastsidemav:

I think you are getting very close.

What about a tiered system where you start with the entire field being judged by multiple teams like Ovid/SVreX are suggesting, then take the top 3 cars from each team and do a much more in depth judging by staff only? With the reduced number of cars, the "top concours" portion could even be a drive through thing where they call each car to a special area, maybe pushing it onto a stage auction style, and turn it into more of a spectator event so that everyone gets to see/hear the story of the top vehicles.

In reply to ¯_(ツ)_/¯:

LOL....sounds like Westminister Kennel dog show system

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem:

Yep. And you and I are poodles. Lol!

SVreX wrote: In reply to eastsidemav: I think you are getting very close.

Which idea? Separate judging teams or rotating individual judges out for break time (preferably indoors in a climate controlled environment with food/drinks/working plumbing).

BTW - If the decision goes towards being able to opt out of concours, I'm probably going have the E36 M3tiest build book ever, since it won't be relevant if the car isn't judged.

In reply to SVreX:

Same scenario. Someone will do an average and complain. Not pooping on your idea. Just sayin.

Again, the Lemons guys knock out a pile of cars with ease. I think this is mainly due to the fact that it's done on registration/tech day. Not during competition.

And it's a relaxed environment where people are drinking beers, shooting the breeze. Seems like there are dozens of venues where this could happen in gville, if not at the host hotel.

In reply to eastsidemav:

Separate judging teams, with the top few also being judged a second time by the opposite team.