$2017 Challenge Concour Points and Judging

spin_out wrote: My thought is that only the top half of the Dynamic time finishers need to be judged. Unless your car was built specifically for the concourse. In that case request for it to be judged. (If you are in the bottom half does it really matter if you placed 43 or 46th overall?) The Judges were clearly exhausted last year with nearly 2 rows of cars left to be judged. Those last two rows probably got a little lower score than they could have. I'd really like to see concourse reduced from 20% of your score to 10%. At 20% One judge could actually decide the winner by giving slightly lower scores than the average to all but their favorite. (I'm looking at you eBay Judge. I'm Kidding? :-)

I agree with most of what you are saying. I don't get the eBay Judge comment. Sorry.

A 10 point scale is fine by me, but I am sure the magazine needs more influence/scoring to keep the cars looking better. I get that.

I personally prefer that cars are built for competition. As such, they are hard to keep clean and a solid day of competition leads to a lot of cleaning. We have battle scars on our cars. I would prefer to be judged on an equal platform with those cars. I also would hate to be a judge.

I truly hope that this thread leads to its intended purpose of making the event better for everyone.

In an effort to get a better feel for where folks are in the race/Challenge world, I found myself curious about who we are. How many folks who compete at the Challenge are regular racers and how many only race at the Challenge? We have been out 5 times this year and that is a light year for us. Our norm is 18-25 times per year.

I (mostly) only show up at the Challenge.

Can't afford more.

I really stopped racing except for the challenge in the last few years. Working Memorial Day - Labor Day is a killer to the racing schedule. In my even younger days I was going to the drag strip twice a year and around 15 autocross events.

I mostly rallycross these days, but am looking into getting back into some form of drag racing, or maybe even devolving into drifting.

I am not now nor do I ever expect to be a top level Challenge competitor, but I'd still like to get scored in all three categories.

Team Stampie is Challenge only. Personally I've found that I enjoy the planning/building more than the competing.

30 years of 30 or more Shows, Retired got bored wanted a streetable race car,Old Trans Am style, built a couple mountain cars, I'm very close to tail of the Dragon.(like 30 miles) Would like to do the Challenge,got My C4 build started but body work is kinda Over the Top.Trying to Get Pimpn3's Fiero and fix it before this year's Challenge, it might end up as the First 2 Time Parking Lot build cars But I hope NOT.

SVreX wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I get what you are trying to do, and like it in theory, but I think it breaks down in practice. First off- the point of the event is to create editorial content. The focus of your point system is to build a great car. I know this one is hard for car guys to get their brain around... I also wonder where you would put something like custom hand-painted graphics. Is it creative respray? Don't think so- it's presentation. How about a full body swap? Major body work? I don't think so- it might not even involve any actual body work. But it certainly creates editorial content! I do understand what you are trying to do...

The rules that you posted are far from clear. I have no idea HOW to get those points. By laying them out in specific things, you know that.

My point is that every other scored concourse has a scoring system that is easy to understand for both the judges and the participants- why can't it be done here?

The fact that I missed some creative ideas does not make the idea bad- it means that it has to be incorporated into the rules. And the idea of major vs. minor body work is to encourage work like Andy does to be worth more potentially than a car like mine which had nothing. A dead stock Alfa should never come close to the same points as a hand made hot rod, potentially.

But the #1 thing is to actually KNOW how to score points. I KNOW that this is an editorial exercise- so bias the points so that they get the content they want- easy button.

There are 25 points available. HOW DO YOU GET THEM? I know how to get points from the autocross and/or drag race- that's easy because you know.

You can have 1000's judges, and having loose rules means you get 1000 answers. Specify how points are earned, and you can at least reduce that some.

In reply to alfadriver:

Well, we disagree.

I think they need judges and a subjective approach with flexibility to enable creativity.

I don't think they need points counters.

I read that list and know EXACTLY why I didn't get a perfect score. I did not have enough innovation, no interesting engineering, and my attention to detail was lacking, particularly under the hood. If I had read that list carefully and applied every word, I would have had a perfect score.

In reply to SVreX:

When I read the original post, IMHO, that's exactly what is being asked.

How do you get the points. And the current system of points just isn't clear enough. It may be exact why someone can't get a perfect score, but how do you even get 20 points out of a possible 25?

But I don't come, so my suggestion is pretty moot. Just a suggestion to clarify how to get the points.

I won't comment on my ideas because I have no dog in the fight... yet.

I'll say that Eric is being a typical engineer (takes one to know one) and is looking for a specification. Not having one makes engineers cranky.

Paul is enjoying the creativity built in, Eric is cringing at it.

In reply to tuna55:

Lol! You're right!

(I was an art major- probably explains a lot!!)

I'll just add, that neither Eric nor I are on target in this thread.

The question Andrew posed had nothing to do with changing the rules. It had to do with streamlining the process of judging. (Although I do see how Eric feels a more narrowly defined set of rules would also streamline the process)

Sorry for getting off topic... carry on!

It sounds like the best bet would be to get a smaller group of judges for a group of cars and then after everyone goes though, then do the top few cars of each group from the staff again. that way they judges get over heated and worn out though the day.I know I have been to the event 2 times and both times the car was pretty much stock. I was more happy to be there hanging and and seeing what was going on then being in the top spots. 2004 for the first time to autcross and do a be event. 2015 was the first time I got to race since 2007. Hoping to make it back this year with something much better then stock, I just might have to steal my nefews demo car after the derby if nothing else.

Demo Derby Car, Many points for Creative Body work. Sadly/Happyly I can see a 70's LTD Making Laps.

GTXVette wrote: Demo Derby Car, Many points for Creative Body work. Sadly/Happyly I can see a 70's LTD Making Laps.

With eggs in the car. Scored on the most broken? Or the most that survive after 20 min? Put a couple ringers in to raise havoc. This could be entertaining. Sounds like a MAV TV event.

tuna55 wrote: I won't comment on my ideas because I have no dog in the fight... yet. I'll say that Eric is being a typical engineer (takes one to know one) and is looking for a specification. Not having one makes engineers cranky. Paul is enjoying the creativity built in, Eric is cringing at it.

Yup.

SVreX wrote: In reply to tuna55: Lol! You're right! (I was an art major- probably explains a lot!!)

Yup

SVreX wrote: I'll just add, that neither Eric nor I are on target in this thread. The question Andrew posed had nothing to do with changing the rules. It had to do with streamlining the process of judging. (Although I do see how Eric feels a more narrowly defined set of rules would also streamline the process) Sorry for getting off topic... carry on!

YUP!!!

Well, the engineers have weighed in. I loose.

I take solace in knowing that the judges ((staff) are primarily a bunch of journalists.

I was a psychology major, English minor with a pair of concentrations in behavioral analysis and creative writing.

It diesnt matter what the rules state, im boned from the minute my eyes see them and my brain begins to interpret them.

Would allowing those who pre-register to choose when their cars would be concourse judged spread the judging around enough to make it easier? To Andy's point, maybe he would prefer to have his judged when he gets there and it's still clean, and someone doing a parking lot build wants every minute he can get. You could incentivize early registration with the choice and after a certain date the late registrations get assigned inspection times to spread the load around for the judges. Morning and evening are the best for photos too, so judging a few cars later or earlier around the other events could be better from a coverage standpoint.

You could also do some sort of class breakdown for the judges. Maybe all the mostly stock stuff gets one judge, and the radical stuff another? Then the points would at least be subjective within a smaller, more definitive group all judged the same.

Thinking about this more I think they should deduct points from Andy because he isn't very innovative anymore. Small Block Chevy, 9" ford rear end in a light weight car.

Andy Neuman wrote: Thinking about this more I think they should deduct points from Andy because he isn't very innovative anymore. Small Block Chevy, 9" ford rear end in a light weight car.

NOPE!

Andy Neuman wrote: Thinking about this more I think they should deduct points from Andy because he isn't very innovative anymore. Small Block Chevy, 9" ford rear end in a light weight car.

After reading Andrew's description of toggling his fuel pump during a 10 second 1/4 mile run I think we need him to be a pro driver for the drags.

wheels777 wrote:

Andy Neuman wrote: Thinking about this more I think they should deduct points from Andy because he isn't very innovative anymore. Small Block Chevy, 9" ford rear end in a light weight car.

NOPE!

Whatever it takes for me to get a new Miller welder next year!