$2017 Challenge Concour Points and Judging

wheels777 wrote:

Andy Neuman wrote: Thinking about this more I think they should deduct points from Andy because he isn't very innovative anymore. Small Block Chevy, 9" ford rear end in a light weight car.

NOPE!

I'm really just jealous of Andrew's skills and time(dedication).

Focus folks. The topic is streamlining the Concour. Allow more time for the Judges to judge and to mingle. Less time in a state of exhaustion.

Okay GRM, Page 5, 100 comments in 24 hours. You've discussed the topic at a staff meeting. Are you trying to figure out how to send a tough love message? Are you on the fence? Should I have avoided posting this thread? Dramatic music ... dant dant daaaant. These and other questions will be answered after these messages.

Okay seriously, what are you thinking and how do we help get the crowd to buy in to the process. I think there were plenty of acknowledgements to the challenges that the judges are facing.

I know I have the right to remain Silent. I do not have the Ability.

If you have worked on your car for weeks/month's/Or years, ......It isn't in the same group as one built or Disassembled in 24 hrs.

Pimpin3's Fiero very Much Deservied the Spirit of the event award,As does the Battle crusiers,Choppers or former Demo derby Cars, But those are not In the same catagory of a Car Built from the Ground Up. the Fiero likely Had a year put into it BEFORE Mr. Neuman brought it South.

Cars Like Mr Nelsons and the Fiero Should not have to even be Parked Next to an UnFinished Car. Unless that car is really a serious effort and just wasn't Finished in time and therefore Does fit Most of what the Guidelines of the Concours.

Like a car that is going to be left at the closest Scrap yard After the event WILL be FUN, But is wasting the Judges Time, Like it's Stupid Fun.

Racing ain't Fun, It's a lot of Work. Winning Is Fun!

In reply to GTXVette:

There may have been some, but I am unaware of a single car in the past 14 years which was brought to the Challenge with intent of leaving it at the local scrap yard.

My $.02

If that's all you found wrong with my post then I'm Golden,But I have read that here.

I'd recommend they give less time to cars that are scoring under 20 points and come back around to re-evaluate anything above 20.

OK, I'll feed one actual idea here. Since the primary reason seems to be to provide an incentive to create great magazine material, why not station one judge at the dragstrip starting line, and one at a slow corner of the autocross? You already need to staff those places, and you can use the guy to judge how they look doing what they are supposed to do. You don't see the interior or underhood, but you do see a lot about how the car looks in the act.

wheels777 wrote: Okay GRM, Page 5, 100 comments in 24 hours. You've discussed the topic at a staff meeting. Are you trying to figure out how to send a tough love message? Are you on the fence?

The truth is that we spent most of yesterday in a meeting (nothing to do with the Challenge) and today we're rushing to push an issue out the door. We totally appreciate the feedback, and on Monday we'll have time to digest and discuss.

Keep those cards and letters coming.

To Andrew's observation that 3 minutes is not enough time to review complex builds, it might be helpful to judges if builders each provided a half page highlight sheet to the judges. Basically a succinct map of special features such as:

FENDER FLARES CONSTRUCTED FROM PLASTIC KIDDIE POOL.

MIGHT save a little time and bring attention to unique aspects of your build.

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: FENDER FLARES CONSTRUCTED FROM PLASTIC KIDDIE POOL.

GREAT idea!

Robbie wrote:

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: FENDER FLARES CONSTRUCTED FROM PLASTIC KIDDIE POOL.

GREAT idea!

But only if you don't paint over cartoon characters

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: To Andrew's observation that 3 minutes is not enough time to review complex builds, it might be helpful to judges if builders each provided a half page highlight sheet to the judges. Basically a succinct map of special features such as: FENDER FLARES CONSTRUCTED FROM PLASTIC KIDDIE POOL. FRONT SUSPENSION MODIFIED FARM ALL TRACTOR RADIATOR CATCH TANK REPURPOSED MILK JUG TURBO CONVERSION MADE FROM 1957 CHEVY WATER PUMP ROLL CAGE LIGHTWEIGHT 1 1/2" PVC PIPE HEADERS FABRICATED FROM GALVINIZED SALVAGE FENCE POST MIGHT save a little time and bring attention to unique aspects of your build.

Hey now we resemble that remark...

In reply to Dusterbd13:

All innovations you done would fill a three ring binder

Yeah... this is a tough one but definitely an area that should be addressed.

Disclosure: I always have bad ideas. In the past I used to race a lot in multiple disciplines at varying levels but now I only autocross a dozen times a year and off road my jeep. If you add up entrant + teammate + spectator then I think I have been to about half of the challenges. Probably will not enter a car this year.

Perhaps we can have a first round sorting of cars done by the entrants. If everyone filled out a form simply ranking all cars from 1 to 50 (? however many) then the tabulations can be done to rank the builds. Maybe the 20 teams with the highest ranking would then move on to the next round. This allows all cars to be judged by their peers and encourages everyone to take a good look at the cars around them. Would make for some great dinner conversation while we enjoy the BBQ. Turn them in by end of drags and I will do it myself; I could even print the forms and post the results. Probably a good idea for the Judges to have power to also give a pass to a car of their choice even if it doesn't make the cut.

At breakfast the top 20 teams could be posted and those cars would then present to the Judges (with entrants spectating) auction block style at the South end of the pavilion while the bottom 30-40 cars park at the North end. With a smaller number of cars (20 is just my guess at an appropriate number) it would be possible to both allot more time to each team and spare the Judges from a grueling slog through a tough process.

Cars below the cut can receive the same score as the lowest judged car for their official concours score. I do not think that this is perfect or fair but simply a workable solution. It would be nice if they could also receive so other form of special recognition; perhaps 30 seconds to stand at the banquet to receive well deserved applause and a questionable joke from our master of ceremonies...

A system like this makes a little more work for everyone in an already busy weekend but I think that most of us would agree that a change is needed. The beauty of this event is that the entrants can guide these changes, and that so many are dedicated to preserving the spirit while adapting for a better future. I'm not totally sure that this is a great idea but I really do want to help and it seems doable to me.

Want to really have a gauge of self awareness and insight?

Have each team self judge their car using 25 point format in rules. Judge your own car after seeing fellow competitors throughout dynamics. Turn in to organizers after drags. Top 25 (or 20 or 15 kinda arbitrary...or top 40% of entrants) cars make the show announced on saturday after everyone assembles in pavillion. Non qualifiers to concours keep their self judged points for overall. Those that qualify for concours take points judged by GRM for overall.

It would be ultimate test of "don't be a dick" rule.

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: To Andrew's observation that 3 minutes is not enough time to review complex builds, it might be helpful to judges if builders each provided a half page highlight sheet to the judges. Basically a succinct map of special features such as: FENDER FLARES CONSTRUCTED FROM PLASTIC KIDDIE POOL. FRONT SUSPENSION MODIFIED FARM ALL TRACTOR RADIATOR CATCH TANK REPURPOSED MILK JUG TURBO CONVERSION MADE FROM 1957 CHEVY WATER PUMP ROLL CAGE LIGHTWEIGHT 1 1/2" PVC PIPE HEADERS FABRICATED FROM GALVINIZED SALVAGE FENCE POST MIGHT save a little time and bring attention to unique aspects of your build.

I've actuallly DONE 2 things on that list!!

Not sure if I should thump my chest, or hang my head in shame!

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem:

I actually really like the self judge idea. Still want to spend some time dedicated with a grm staff member or other judge though.

In reply to SVreX:

Makes me curious as to which two

In reply to Robbie:

If it's that important give yourself an undeserved bogus 25 points and tell me how your one on one time with GRM staff goes

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: Want to really have a gauge of self awareness and insight? Have each team self judge their car using 25 point format in rules. Judge your own car after seeing fellow competitors throughout dynamics. Turn in to organizers after drags. Top 25 (or 20 or 15 kinda arbitrary...or top 40% of entrants) cars make the show announced on saturday after everyone assembles in pavillion. Non qualifiers to concours keep their self judged points for overall. Those that qualify for concours take points judged by GRM for overall. It would be ultimate test of "don't be a dick" rule.

That sounds just like "I'll take the standard deduction" or "I want to be judged" idea. In the end it produces the same result. You reduce the number of cars being judged, and the judges have more time to judge each car, with a net reduction in total time

In reply to wheels777:

I have to respectfully disagree, Andrew. The more I think about it might work...or not. But it would lighten load on judges.

You're opinion is certainly better than mine given your experience.

In my inaugural event last year I was awarded more points than I thought I deserved given my last minute problems but I still had a blast.

In reply to wheels777:

There is a little strategy in the self awarded points. For example I got 13 last year. Basically an average car. I think I could push that some and maybe award myself 15 points without making the cut. Here's where it wouldn't work. My sharpie decorated Miata my first year got like 7 points. I could give it say 13 points and not make the cut. 6 points on a car like that wouldn't affect the top 10 cars but it could make a big difference in half budget. Think of us really cheap SoBs.

In reply to Stampie:

I knew that would come up. Say there was a 5 way tie in self scoring for cutoff to show....tiebreaker would be lowest budget wins.

I would be willing to bet 80 % of self scores would be within 3 points of grm judges. 5 % woul be self judged too high (dicks) and 15% would judge way too low.

In reply to Stampie:

Slightly offended my beautiful Q45 scored only 2 points more than my throw away Q45.