Is the Lincoln Navigator still one of the top choices in the full-size luxury SUV market?
Is the Lincoln Navigator still one of the top choices in the full-size luxury SUV market?
It’s a little weird to describe one of your favorite features of driving a car being the time you don’t have to drive it, but it’s an excellent system that keeps you engaged enough that you’re still attentive and conscious of what’s going on around you, but also takes some of the fatigue-inducing load of extended road trips and knocks it down several pegs. It’s a nice balance that doesn’t feel like handing your safety over to a computer. It’s there to help, not take over.
This almost perfectly sums up why I love these systems. It just takes some of the suck out of driving sometimes.
It will never be an Escalade. Has there EVER been a time that Lincoln wasn't sucking hind tit behind Cadillac?
In reply to 1988RedT2 :
Not since Cadillac decided who they want to be and Lincoln still has not. That was one key thing that really made me mad for the last 20 years.
In reply to alfadriver :
I'd agree with that. A Cadillac does know exactly what it wants to be, and that's been true for decades.
What's a Lincoln and where does it fit in? And will that answer be the same in five or 10 years?
And then add Genesis to the mix. That's the one to watch.
Does Cadillac know what they are? Because they went from being the Standard of the World, to parts bin GM, to competing with the Germans for Nurburgring times. They've gone from being HQ'd in Detroit, to NYC, and back to MI now. They spent a decade building the V performance brand, and then watered it down while renaming their top performance trims after a bespoke ICE that they made like 1000 copies of before scrapping the whole thing.
I think I could make the argument that Lincoln has been less scattered than Cadillac in the last 2 decades.
I'll agee with the sentiments that neither Cadillac nor Lincoln knows and Genisis is the one to watch.
In other news... The former movie featuring Mathew McConaughey and based a books has been rebooted as a series on Netflix
The Lincoln Lawyer. I watched some, it's good. Not great. But good, entertaining.
In reply to STM317 :
Agree. I don't think anyone of my generation knows what Cadillac is trying to accomplish. The V cars were aimed directly at BMW's M division, and some were genuinely good, but then the rest of the brand lineup is comprised of mundane crossovers with leather seats. The Escalade stands alone as far as being a Cadillac in the old sense: an acres-long luxury cruiser defined by hedonistic excess.
I don't know that Lincoln's trajectory through the 00s was defined much better, but at least in the last few years they've ditched the jumbled letter model names, and their exterior and interior styling has gotten a lot more elegant. They screwed up by not making the Continental longer, it would've had much more presence with another 6" of wheelbase. The Navigator interior looks like a genuinely nice place to be though, at least from pictures it looks as good as what you can get from Range Rover.
I'd like to see either of the two brands make a real flagship full size sedan, with no pretenses toward performance and a real focus on luxury and quality of materials used, but sedans don't sell like they used to I guess. Also while we're dreaming, a Coyote-powered Lincoln Mark IX coupe on an extended version of the Mustang platform would've been cool..
So, Cadillac dominates sales figures, but they're the brand wandering lost in the desert?
racerfink said:So, Cadillac dominates sales figures, but they're the brand wandering lost in the desert?
And, to me, that's what's really defined that Lincoln has had no idea what they were selling over the last 20 years. I remember going to a large all hands meeting in a big conference room- where they had the MKC and Fusion at the front- but I got there late and was in the back. I could not tell the difference between the two cars.
Up until the Continental- the closest thing we got to real separation was the Flex vs. MKT- where the latter was so ugly that it quickly became the cheaper used version.
alfadriver said:And, to me, that's what's really defined that Lincoln has had no idea what they were selling over the last 20 years. I remember going to a large all hands meeting in a big conference room- where they had the MKC and Fusion at the front- but I got there late and was in the back. I could not tell the difference between the two cars.
Was that when the Zephyr was becoming the MKZ? If so, I was at that meeting and asked Derrick Kuzak about why Lincoln's names were going away to be replaced by anonymous combinations of letters. His answer was something about wanting to de-emphasize the car names and put more emphasis on "Lincoln".
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
I can't remember, but I do remember that whatever exec I told that the different cars look identical wasn't happy when I pointed that out.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
FWIW, at least they now just use names.
I am kind of amazed Lincoln is still a thing. Their sales numbers don't look great compared to others I would think they are competing with in the US and there is nothing in their lineup that really seems like it would be a great choice over choices from their competitors. And with more brands moving into that space (Tesla, Genesis), it isn't going to get easier for them. Honestly I could only think of one model off the top of my head, the Navigator. I had to go look up what else they even had. Are they popular in China like Buick?
For 2021, Lincoln moved ~88k units, Land Rover moved ~90k units, BMW 337k, Audi 195k, Caddy 118k, MB 330k and Lexus 327k.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
I'm assuming their profit margins are really healthy compared to their corporate cousin base Escapes and Explorer Police Packages of the world.
It does seem like they've got big plans for the brand in China as well. From their 2021 annual financial report:
"In China, Ford recorded a fourth-quarter operating loss, but is expected to improve profitability
in 2022.
Locally built Lincoln-brand vehicles are a huge part of Ford’s turnaround there, positioning the
company to be a significant player in the world’s largest luxury car market. For the first time,
Lincoln volumes in China were larger than those in the U.S. Full-year sales of Lincoln models
were up nearly 50% from 2020, with the launch of the Lincoln Zephyr set for first-quarter 2022
and other new products from the brand forthcoming."
Even though this version of the Navigator is a few years old now, I recall when it launched one of the mainstream mags wrote that it took the Navigator from 'Oh yes, Lincoln make a full size SUV, to, Lincoln make THE full size SUV'. Personably I think they are magnificent places to be. While they do look good for their size, the front is just too damn big, but the same goes for the Cadiyuck Escapade. I must admit that the new Grad Wagoneer LWB looks for more compact, but is very color sensitive. The interior of the Navigator is still a magnificent place to be, no better long distance luxury environment for take a lot of people and studd. Comfy, spacious, beautiful fit, finish and materials. And while it's easy to criticize the Black label for being over $100K, the LWB Ranger Rover starts at $110.5K, and the autobiography edition ranges from $161-250K with options.
And as for Lincoln not knowing what it's doing????? Has no one paid attention for the last decade since they started to get their E36 M3 together after 20 years of hard work to the bottom of the barrel? Lincoln is meant to be American Luxury. Caddy are trying to out German the Germans in their German-ness, especially with their V cars. Thankfully I think the words race track are banned anywhere inside Lincoln.
And don't forget Lincoln is no longer just a North American line. They are sold in China as well now, where they are admired for being American Luxury, and last year they sold 91k units, more than in the US for the first time. The brand was only launched their Eight years ago and is doing well.
I live in middle America in a generally small town. I also live in an area that used to have a Ford parts factory in town and a Ford Final Assembly plant at the edge of the county. So, it a Ford-town.
Many businesses owners here have migrated to Lincoln as the status symbol of being an American manufacturer.
Also, most import lux brands are nearly 1 hour to the closest dealer /service.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
out of the 88k total, 20-25k were the navigator. their numbers are up from 15k units but I think there is a bulk of that going to China where there is a major market for these now. no more MKZ, its all trucks/SUV for lincoln - especially since the death of the rebirth of the touring car. The aviator I remember quoting and they anticipated ~70K units annually on that - they were way off.
Caddie still outsells them at a multitude too, (navi to escalade) I don't think they took any market share but more people bought bigger trucks again.
since the mY18 navigator the interior has come leaps and bounds, no question there.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:Lincoln is meant to be American Luxury.
Other then the Chinese and people of the boomer generation (which is increasingly moving into the point of probably not buying any more cars), does anyone actually want that?
In reply to 93EXCivic :
Fair point, but remember the Chinese national auto market last year sold 21.5 million vehicle, vs 15 mil for the US. So China is a more important sales base than here. And while we're driving our workers into poverty, the middle class is expanding in China so the growth potential is far greater than here.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :
Sorry, Adrian, as much as things have been moving around and changing, we are a LONG way from mid90s sales. And nowhere near what PAG were supposed to be 20 years ago.
I really have no idea what a Lincoln is, other than a more expensive Ford.
alfadriver said:I really have no idea what a Lincoln is, other than a more expensive Ford.
Couldn't the same be said for Cadillac or GMC's relationship with Chevy? Or Acura and Honda? Or Infiniti and Nissan? Or to some extent Audi and VW?
Cadillac has always known what they want to be.... I give you the Cimarron. :-) For that matter, the XLR....
In reply to DaleCarter :
Cadillacs goal seems to be trying to impersonate the Germans, constantly falling just a little bit short, but that's OK as enough people are taking in to not to worry about perfection. Lincoln has said they don't want to try it out German the Germans, instead they are focusing on American luxury. That means there's going to be a little bit more chrome and bling than others, but with a ride that is truly luxurious rather than try to convince people that a sports car ride is suitable for a luxury vehicle.
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