$4.00/gallon gas coming? Bring it on...

steved033 wrote: At least with a volt you get a backup plan. The E-focus is battery only...i'm living on the EDGE!! sjd

Agreed, and I may go full electric next time around, as I find myself hating to use the gas generator.

I want to try out a Volt but I am afraid I would find it too quite. I mean most modern cars I have driven are just to quite and so I kinda wonder what running on pure electric would be like...

93EXCivic wrote: I want to try out a Volt but I am afraid I would find it too quite. I mean most modern cars I have driven are just to quite and so I kinda wonder what running on pure electric would be like...

It's not like being buried alive or anything. The Volt generates very little noise itself but there's still plenty of road noise.

Chris_V wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: I've never driven a Volt, so I can't say for sure, but I have a very hard time believing it's anywhere near as much fun to drive as a playful, torquey, fast warm hatchback.

Your first sentence said it: YOU haven't driven one, which makes you rather ignorant on the subject. You really should drive one, 280 lb ft of torque right off idle is nothing to sneeze at, along with a low center of gravity for very planted handling.

I've been in an '11 TDI Golf several times. I would not swap my Volt for one. To be fair, the Golf owner would not trade it for my Volt either. :)

Aside from being surprisingly fun to drive, I have grown to really love exchanging 3 seconds/day plugging it in for buying gas. Perhaps its a personal malfunction but I just hate buying gas, which I did a whole lot of before the Volt. My personal record is nearly 4 months between fill-ups. Aside from a few ozs here and there, I only use gas on long drives where I'll be stopping at a rest area anyway.

I've driven a Leaf and it feels pretty dang good at low speeds. Feels like a 15 second, maybe even 14 second car off the line. Of course, it isnt one. But, if you drive mostly at low speeds and dont need all 70 miles and charge daily, you can hoon around 0-40 all day and it'll feel like you're driving a pretty dang sprightly car.

I think that's one thing people dont talk about much. If you have a <40 mile commute and charge daily, you can hoon the crap out of a Leaf and still pay WAY less on fuel costs than a gas car driven conservatively.

In reply to Vigo:

LOL. Driving a car in electric mode does indeed feel like you got free gas or stole some.

Whenever I take out the wife's Smart EV for an errand on a weekend, I'm full throttle hooning it around. Still trying to figure out how to turn off stability control so I can do some burnouts.

Vigo wrote: I think that's one thing people dont talk about much. If you have a <40 mile commute and charge daily, you can hoon the crap out of a Leaf and still pay WAY less on fuel costs than a gas car driven conservatively.

Good call. And you don't have to worry about high RPM shifts or automatic transmission issues while doing it. My Leaf will squeal one tire around spirited corners while the tunakids within squeal with delight.

Chris_V wrote: Fot the last 8 months I haven't used a drop of gasoline or diesel in daily driving. It's barly more expensive ($27k average transaction price thanks to incentives both federal and from GM) to buy, but you don't have the fuel costs after you buy, so that makes it cheaper. And since you haven't driven one, you're speaking out your butthole about how refined it is. Seriously, knock it the berkeley off.

Hey, thanks for the hostility. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people are rushing to trade their Bentley Mulsannes in on Volts. Never heard about the super refinement from anybody but you, but hey, you're really angry so it must be true.

I have driven the new TDIs (have you?) and they are really, really refined. Quieter and smoother than any of the many 90s German luxo barges I've driven.

Your first sentence said it: YOU haven't driven one, which makes you rather ignorant on the subject. You really should drive one, 280 lb ft of torque right off idle is nothing to sneeze at, along with a low center of gravity for very planted handling. Serious as a heart attack, go drive one, put it in Sport mode and low gear and punch it from about 10 mph up to about 40-50. it's quick.

I'd like to. The problem is I've never even seen one on a lot. I've seen, in the flesh, maybe two. I tried to compare one for this article, - http://www.newsreview.com/reno/flash-drives/content?oid=5825690 - but would have had a 700 mile drive to get to one.

It's not. The Volt is damn near completely silent (it has tire noise when rolling). Again, you haven't driven one, so shut up until you do, it just makes you sound foolish.

You know that righteous, avenging angel feeling? You should stop expressing yourself until it goes away.

If you do, you might even pick up on the qualifying statements I keep making.

Why don't you post a picture of a berkeleying PRODUCTION Volt. Like mine: leather and suede inserts, and a dark center console. The beige door panel inserts are the suede, like the seat centers. or in black, like the one I test drove:

Why didn't I use a production interior? Well first, I've seen a grand total of two in my entire life, have never been inside one, so I'm something less than an expert on the difference. Second, I think the pre-production interior actually looks better, though not substantially different, and was trying to be fair. Third, I'm not exactly alone in characterizing VAG interiors as nicer than GM interiors.

It's just as nice a place to be as the VW in reality and in actual use day to day. It has no more plastic than my E38 740iL did.

As someone who has driven both an E38 7 series and a 2013 Golf, I thought the Golf was significantly nicer inside.

Oh, and although I hate to interfere with your righteous vengeance, I also wrote this about the Volt in, you know, the exact same post that so upset you.

"That said, a Volt is closer to being an EV. If you have enough money for a second/third car and commute, EVs make sense. If I had the money for a second/third car, I'd seriously consider one."

mfennell wrote:

Chris_V wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: I've never driven a Volt, so I can't say for sure, but I have a very hard time believing it's anywhere near as much fun to drive as a playful, torquey, fast warm hatchback.

Your first sentence said it: YOU haven't driven one, which makes you rather ignorant on the subject. You really should drive one, 280 lb ft of torque right off idle is nothing to sneeze at, along with a low center of gravity for very planted handling.

I've been in an '11 TDI Golf several times. I would not swap my Volt for one. To be fair, the Golf owner would not trade it for my Volt either. :) Aside from being surprisingly fun to drive, I have grown to really love exchanging 3 seconds/day plugging it in for buying gas. Perhaps its a personal malfunction but I just hate buying gas, which I did a whole lot of before the Volt. My personal record is nearly 4 months between fill-ups. Aside from a few ozs here and there, I only use gas on long drives where I'll be stopping at a rest area anyway.

I really would like to try one out. EVs make a lot of sense to me, if you have another car for long trips. The Volt is basically an EV without the need for another car.

My criticism is really mostly for hybrids like the Prius or Lexus LS600h.

tuna55 wrote: And you don't have to worry about high RPM shifts or automatic transmission issues while doing it.

That's another thing that takes a bit of getting used to. In gas or hybrid cars, you still have some kind of transmission with gear ratios. So you get that momentary pause and change in engine rpm. You get none of that with the Leaf. It's just one continous surge. Sort of like a CVT, but with no noise.

Klayfish wrote:

tuna55 wrote: And you don't have to worry about high RPM shifts or automatic transmission issues while doing it.

That's another thing that takes a bit of getting used to. In gas or hybrid cars, you still have some kind of transmission with gear ratios. So you get that momentary pause and change in engine rpm. You get none of that with the Leaf. It's just one continous surge. Sort of like a CVT, but with no noise.

Is that weird or cool in your experience?

It's cool. :)

Speaking for the Volt, while it's objectively pretty slow (0-60 in 8.7 I think), acceleration is so completely noiseless that I find myself accelerating WOT all the time Just Because I Can. A 4 cylinder Camry may be quicker but only if you're revving the sh*t out of it and who wants to do that?

I'm hoping GRM (JG?) gets a flash for their Volt. It turns out that the DME is generic GM and the tables are accessible with EFILive and other tuners. There have been claims of mid-6 second 0-60 times just by fooling with the torque limits in the tables.

93EXCivic wrote: I want to try out a Volt but I am afraid I would find it too quite. I mean most modern cars I have driven are just to quite and so I kinda wonder what running on pure electric would be like...

Without the radio on, it's very turbine like....

sjd

DaewooOfDeath wrote:

mfennell wrote:

Chris_V wrote:

DaewooOfDeath wrote: I've never driven a Volt, so I can't say for sure, but I have a very hard time believing it's anywhere near as much fun to drive as a playful, torquey, fast warm hatchback.

Your first sentence said it: YOU haven't driven one, which makes you rather ignorant on the subject. You really should drive one, 280 lb ft of torque right off idle is nothing to sneeze at, along with a low center of gravity for very planted handling.

I've been in an '11 TDI Golf several times. I would not swap my Volt for one. To be fair, the Golf owner would not trade it for my Volt either. :) Aside from being surprisingly fun to drive, I have grown to really love exchanging 3 seconds/day plugging it in for buying gas. Perhaps its a personal malfunction but I just hate buying gas, which I did a whole lot of before the Volt. My personal record is nearly 4 months between fill-ups. Aside from a few ozs here and there, I only use gas on long drives where I'll be stopping at a rest area anyway.

I really would like to try one out. EVs make a lot of sense to me, if you have another car for long trips. The Volt is basically an EV without the need for another car. My criticism is really mostly for hybrids like the Prius or Lexus LS600h.

But wait....we ALL have other/another car/cars.....so EV's make sense to you!

sjd

To be honest, the Volt is basically the same thing as a prius, with a larger battery pack that allows meaningful EV range and speed. The way they work other than that is extremely similar.

Granted, the Volt is significantly upmarket (interior etc) but that's because it's a halo product for gm, and you HAVE to position a car with that much STUFF in it upmarket so you can charge enough to make money on it.

But i really dont draw a huge distinction between the Volt and the Prius from a 'type of car' standpoint. They are basically the same thing executed to different degrees, and are both products of their circumstances as far as who's making them, when they were initially designed, how they're priced, etc.

DaewooOfDeath wrote:

Klayfish wrote:

tuna55 wrote: And you don't have to worry about high RPM shifts or automatic transmission issues while doing it.

That's another thing that takes a bit of getting used to. In gas or hybrid cars, you still have some kind of transmission with gear ratios. So you get that momentary pause and change in engine rpm. You get none of that with the Leaf. It's just one continous surge. Sort of like a CVT, but with no noise.

Is that weird or cool in your experience?

Really it's both at the same time. After having driven hundreds of thousands of miles over the past 20-some odd years, it's permanently etched in my mind that you get some kind of slight pause in acceleration and an RPM drop. Doesn't matter if it's auto or manual. Newer autos make shifts pretty much seamless, but you still get a drop in revs and you know when it shifts. So it's really weird to not have that. It's just constantly picking up speed. My mind says "Shift...shift...c'mon damn it shift!!!". Then I realize that it's not going to. So it's a bit odd. But the continual push is awesome. I have very limited experience with a trans brakes or line locks, but the sensation is just like that....if you were wearing ear plugs, under your ear muffs that were covered with shotgun ear phones.

Vigo wrote: To be honest, the Volt is basically the same thing as a prius, with a larger battery pack that allows meaningful EV range and speed. The way they work other than that is extremely similar.

The Volt gives an actual Electric Vehicle experience with a gasoline engine backup. There is no way to accomplish that with the Prius.

Battery pack size is not the issue.primary issue, the ICE-centric ("powerful" ICE, little electric motor) design of the Prius is. Toyota has already put a bigger battery pack in a Prius and call it the Plug In Prius. The ICE comes on with even moderate acceleration. 6 miles into the EPA City test, the engine has to start up because the traction motor can't supply enough power to match the acceleration profile. Top speed (eventually) w/o using the gas engine is 62mph because, aside from the power limitations, the traction motor is rpm-limited - the ICE has to start spinning to keep it in range.

The Volt inverts the arrangement. It has a powerful electric motor(s) and a "little" ICE. The Volt NEVER uses its ICE in normal operation until the battery is low. It accelerates to 101mph on battery power. Mine hasn't started in 3 weeks.

mfennell wrote: It's cool. :) Speaking for the Volt, while it's objectively pretty slow (0-60 in 8.7 I think),

0-60 sucks becaeu 50-60 sucks, 10-40 feels blistering, especially in Sport mode where the barest throttle tip-in sends you scooting. Low speed accelleration is what really sold me on it, as it's 280 lb ft of torque is nothing to sneeze at.

mfennell wrote: acceleration is so completely noiseless that I find myself accelerating WOT all the time Just Because I Can.

Yup. it's easy to be much quicker than anyone else from a light. And with TC off, it'll blaze it's little run-flats.

mfennell wrote: I'm hoping GRM (JG?) gets a flash for their Volt. It turns out that the DME is generic GM and the tables are accessible with EFILive and other tuners. There have been claims of mid-6 second 0-60 times just by fooling with the torque limits in the tables.

if mine wasn't leased, I'd be dong that. I've seen the guy developing it, and he does tune kits for Corvettes, Camaros, and CTS Vs, as well.

Vigo wrote: To be honest, the Volt is basically the same thing as a prius, with a larger battery pack that allows meaningful EV range and speed. The way they work other than that is extremely similar. But i really dont draw a huge distinction between the Volt and the Prius from a 'type of car' standpoint. They are basically the same thing executed to different degrees,

Not even close. the Prius is an ICE car with battery assist. In the Plug In version, you get a bit more battery range, but that's about it. The Volt is an EV with a built in generator. The Prius cannot be driven without it's ICE engine. The Volt could.

Dammit Chevy! Make the damn thing a 5 seater so it's useable for my family!

Chris_V wrote: The Prius cannot be driven without it's ICE engine. The Volt could.

All Prii overseas can. 2nd (?) or 3rd gen cars here can as well.

Yes, they are much more limited in electric-only mode than the Volt is.

As Vigo said, they are both the same basic formula, just different execution.

ProDarwin wrote: Yes, they are much more limited in electric-only mode than the Volt is.

That's becaeu they are not an EV. The electric mode is only there to assist the primary motivator, the ICE.

ProDarwin wrote: As Vigo said, they are both the same basic formula, just different execution.

Again, even in concept, the Prius is an ICE car with battery assist. The Volt is an EV with a built in generator. The engine doesn't kick on until the battery is depleted, and even then, it's only real function is to keep the charge level constant until you can plug it in again. When the batteries are depleted it CAN assist the electric motor(s) in driving the wheels when over 75 mph, but it does so in a completely different method than the Prius engine. It drives the generator as a motor, which in turn assists the main propulsion motor. The Prius ICE is actually connected directly to the drive wheels at all times.

The Prius formula is an ICE car that gets better fuel economy due to limited electrical assistance. The Volt's formula is to be an electric car that removes any fear of range anxiety.

ProDarwin wrote: All Prii overseas can. 2nd (?) or 3rd gen cars here can as well.

Oh, I mean with the engine REMOVED. Not talking about low speed electric propulsion assist.

The Volt doesn't need it's gas generator to get around even at it's top speed of 100 mph. You could remove it entirely and the electric motor would still be directly connected to the wheels and run on pure battery power, which is recharged by plugging it in.

The volt and prius both use electric motors, an ICE , planetary gearsets and a battery pack. The volt uses a large electric motor and a large battery pack and relies on that as much as possible. The ICE is mainly used to charge but occasionally used to assist in motive force and at that time is indeed connected to the wheels. Most of the time it is not. The prius uses a tiny pack and smallish motors and relies primarily on the ICE with electric assist in all but a few instances. The ICE can be disconnected from the wheels but usually remains engaged. Both are similar designs but drastically different in implementation.

MrJoshua wrote: The ICE is mainly used to charge but occasionally used to assist in motive force and at that time is indeed connected to the wheels.

By locking the generator electric motor (the Volt has two electric motors, remember, one primarily used as a generator) to the ICE so that the ICE drives the generator motor which then assists the primary motor. This is quite a bit different than the Prius setup, which, as you indicated, has the primary drive (the ICE) directly connected to the wheels, with the tiny electric motor (it only has one) assisting at low speeds. The Plug in Prius adds a larger battery pack so that it can go a litle farther and a little faster with the electric assist, but in concept, it's still an ICE car with battery assist.

Admittedly, they are working towards solving the same problem, but they are coming at it from opposite directions, not variations on the same direction.

Much like how the shape came about, and how it, like the Insight, ended up looking like the Prius, even though the starting point was different (after 500 hours in the wind tunnel, this ended up being the solution)