89 Civic Si more fun than a Miata R package

Flame suit is very very on.

My father just scored a 27k mile, red 97 r package Miata. The struts are good, the tires are OK, the brakes are good. The car is the way an R should be; completely stock.

I have an 89 Civic Si with good brakes, OK struts, OK tires. It is also completely stock.

Why does my Civic feel:

a) Faster

b) Quicker

c) More capable at going around a corner fast

and most importantly

d) More fun

To add onto that; I get better gas mileage, I can fit three girls in the back seat, and a set of tools, floor jack, and autocross tires fits well in the trunk. It makes me wonder... why should I get a Miata?

Taiden wrote: why should I get a Miata?

cause you've already paid the money for the hormone therapy and new wardrobe; you just need to complete the "Big Change'....

buy a miata and you don't have to hide in the closet anymore...

You don't have to keep a doberman in a Miata to keep it from getting stolen.

Honestly, an 89 Civic Si is no slouch and a pretty capable little ride. I would say those two rides are similar in a lot of ways...........meaning..........depending on personal preference, one could go either way.

Taiden wrote: Why does my Civic feel: a) Faster b) Quicker c) More capable at going around a corner fast and most importantly d) More fun

A)Its a stock R with 27k on it. Unless it was autocrossed for 25k it likely hasn't been to the redline too often and needs a good decarbonization, timing belt, plugs, wires, etc. Cars, especially Miatas, don't like sitting around much.

B)See A, plus gearing differences

C)Maybe you're not used to RWD? FWD has a completely different feel to it. In anything other than 10/10ths driving I doubt there would be much difference between the two cars.

D)Ever try doing a doughnut in your Civic? Drifting? Can you put the top down after a hard day at work and arrive home with a smile even if traffic sucked in the Honda? Some people get it, some don't. Try driving it a week and post back

Get an aggressive street alignment and good tires on the Miata and report back.

Didn't they only sell 47 Rs in 97? That's a rare bird if I ever saw one.

I can sort of compare. I'm on my second Miata, a 91. My girlfriend has an 88 CRX Si. When it works (which is rare - this CRX has excessive "personality," for which I blame this specific car rather than Hondas and CRXs in general), it's a very fun car to drive. Both have awesome suspension geometry, so they both handle very well. Neither has much power, but that's OK - they're both very fun to drive.

But for me, RWD is the way to go. Sure, you can make a FWD car oversteer, but I prefer to get my oversteer with power than braking. And also the top down aspect. Plus the Miata shifter is one of the best I've ever driven. There's a feel about a shifter that comes straight out of the transmission that no cable operated shifter can duplicate. The Miata was built to be a sports car. The Civic was built to be an economy car, and it just happens to have sporty capabilities.

I will grant that the Civic is a MUCH more practical car, with its back seat and all. Even the CRX is more practical - still 2 seats, but loads of cargo room. I could take 4 tires and tools to an event in the CRX - not in a Miata.

But that's what trailers are for.

Get rid of that terrible suspension. The R-package setup, stock, is the worst Miata suspension ever delivered from the factory in my opinion. The first time I drove one I was shocked.

That said, the 97 R is very rare. There are something like 42 of them.

Honda builds great engines, Mazda not so much. Can't argue with that. But the Miata has that wonderful throttle adjustability to the handling. With a stock R, you might only get it on a smooth road or a racetrack :)

Keith wrote: Get rid of that terrible suspension. The R-package setup, stock, is the worst Miata suspension ever delivered from the factory in my opinion. The first time I drove one I was shocked. That said, the 97 R is very rare. There are something like 42 of them. Honda builds great engines, Mazda not so much. Can't argue with that. But the Miata has that wonderful throttle adjustability to the handling.

Really? I was under the impression that was "the" setup to have for E stock?

Maybe, if you're only driving in parking lots.

//sorry for the threadjack but...

The reason I was asking is I have just aquired a 1996 miata, and I have been mulling over my long term plans for the car.

One option I briefly considered was converting it to an R package car (allowed under SCCA rules provided I change everything associated with that package).

I decided against it on a its-more-trouble-than-its-worth rational and since then I have been on the fence about keeping it an e-stock legal car.

So I am curious as to your experence with that particular setup.

R package cars are tough to live with on a daily basis. A 2 hr ride is murder plus I cant tell you how many times I came out of a store to find the R impaled on a parking curb because the suspension relieved itself and drooped several inches after I parked it. On a smooth surface or in a racing environment, it cant be beat but how often are you doing laps at RA??

Capt. Slow, give me a call at work on Thursday (I'm out of the office tomorrow). This would work well over the phone.

Short form: there are a number of aftermarket suspension options that will give a better ride and better handling than a bone-stock R setup. Can the R package parts be modified to be improved? Definitely. Personally, I like to build fun cars and then race them in whatever class they end up in...

Ok, will do.

// my thread hijacking is done here, carry on

Thats funny. I prefer the new civic over the new mx5. I prefer the old miata over almost anything, including the old si.

Taiden wrote: Flame suit is very very on. My father just scored a 27k mile, red 97 r package Miata. The struts are good, the tires are OK, the brakes are good. The car is the way an R should be; completely stock. I have an 89 Civic Si with good brakes, OK struts, OK tires. It is also completely stock. Why does my Civic feel: a) Faster b) Quicker c) More capable at going around a corner fast and most importantly d) More fun To add onto that; I get better gas mileage, I can fit three girls in the back seat, and a set of tools, floor jack, and autocross tires fits well in the trunk. It makes me wonder... why should I get a Miata?

I think you answered your own questions, there, Taiden.

So how do you put the top down on a Civic Si? :P

Really, you just weren't driving the cars hard enough. Get them both out to an autocross where you can see how much fun the Miata is to dance around cones steering with the throttle, and how the Civic grips forever, but you're constantly fighting to keep up with steering inputs. They are both fast, but only one can be tossed into a corner, step the tail out a little, catch it and go. Of course, if either car were mine I would ditch at least some of the stock parts. The civic would get a STS spec suspension, and the Miata would get bilsteins revalved for E-stock.

Also, yes, GET IT ALIGNED! Miatas are very adjustable and can be completely transformed going from a stock or random alignment setting to something more aggressive.

Josh wrote: They are both fast, but only one can be tossed into a corner, step the tail out a little, catch it and go.

Nope.

Setup a civic correctly then give your insights. My Daily driver (00 SIR) has no issues stepping out the tail, just drop throttle and the azz end kicks out. Same with my autocross car (92 CX turbo)

stock for stock the miata should handle better thou.

Yup, I'm late to the party, but a stock R-package suspension isn't a great solution. Even parked, you're almost touching the factory bump stops.

As Keith mentioned, many aftermarket solutions exist. We just redid the suspension on our project turbo Miata. (It's also an R-package car, only the coolest of cool kids get them. ) There's a project update here, but look for an article in an upcoming GRM with the data and our results.

The best thing about upgrading from the R-pkg. setup was the huge improvement to ride quality and street manners. The car is also much more predicatable and easier to drive fast.

This R has a very strange wobble on turn in. Bump steer in a corner is also very bizarre, it's very hard to describe, but very much like my Civic yet more bizarre.

The whole car seems to rotate in a corner.... but not in the way I expected it to rotate. The tires stay in one spot and the body seems to rotate nose away from the direction you are turning. Almost like a bobble head or something.

Also, when making slow sharp turns the inside rear wheel skips under light throttle... torsen diff? Kinda cool in it's own way.

I didn't get to drive Joshes Miata that fast, but I would be much more inclined to drive something like that then a stock R. The R felt weird.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Josh wrote: They are both fast, but only one can be tossed into a corner, step the tail out a little, catch it and go.

Nope.

Yup. Trailing throttle oversteer. Very effective at getting a Civic to turn in better.

You're not describing normal behavior. The R might only have 27k miles, but the rubber in that car is still 12 years old and the car has obviously spent a lot of time sitting.

Just for fun, measure the distance from the center of the wheel to the bottom of the fender on the Miata. I'd be curious to know what you come up with.

Does sound like a Torsen, though.