Up on jack stands at the moment doing a JDM Forester manual swap with 4.44 R160 diff. Looking into brake upgrades as a next step. Do an LGT 2pot front brake upgrade with Sparco Terra wheels, or fork out the bigger bucks for Method wheels and do the whole 4 pot/2 pot brake upgrade?
Hi Jesse, i'm an automotive brake systems engineer and a skeptic, and I can't imagine a world where the existing OE brakes are not good enough for RallyCross. Can you describe how/when the OE brakes are underperforming your goals? confession: i've never thought about braking in off-road competition but now i really want to!
Get really grippy pads for the brakes you have.
Oh, and pull the ABS fuse so you can lock the brakes at will.
I like keeping the ABS because I am not interested in locking the brakes.
For rallycross, IMO you want the smallest brakes you can legally use, to reduce unsprung weight. You won't be using the brakes in any meaningful way except for a dab here and there to set the chassis.
In reply to Knurled. :
Thanks for all the replies, looks like I'll just rebuild my stock calipers and buy some good pads and rotors, some SS lines and new fluids.
Though I'm going to probably unplug my ABS for now since the wheel reluctors are crusty and don't read properly. Until my whel bearings go out that is and I'll replace them then.
I’m with every else on going with stock size brakes. Especially if you are still running the stock 2.2 engine. I ran a 95 Legacy Brighton for a season or so, and don’t recall running into any serious brake fade. It was just not fast enough to work the brakes too hard.
Knurled. said:I like keeping the ABS because I am not interested in locking the brakes.
I unplug my ABS because I want to slow down. The ABS on a 2004 Forester XT will not slow the car in any appreciable way if the surface you're on is bumpy and loose. I've no idea why. It seems to work fairly well on flat, smooth surfaces.
Brett_Murphy said:Knurled. said:I like keeping the ABS because I am not interested in locking the brakes.
I unplug my ABS because I want to slow down. The ABS on a 2004 Forester XT will not slow the car in any appreciable way if the surface you're on is bumpy and loose. I've no idea why. It seems to work fairly well on flat, smooth surfaces.
Some ABS systems are very sensitive to split-second minor drops in wheel speed when braking on a bumpy surface. They think you're far worse off traction-wise than you really are and end up cutting a bunch of braking power.
Once my ABS is fully functional, I may install a dash mounted circuit breaker in place of the fuse, see how it works on the fly without having to open the hood.
In reply to JesseWolfe :
If it's anything like the '02 wrx I had, the abs will not reengage unless you cycle the ignition.
Brett_Murphy said:Knurled. said:I like keeping the ABS because I am not interested in locking the brakes.
I unplug my ABS because I want to slow down. The ABS on a 2004 Forester XT will not slow the car in any appreciable way if the surface you're on is bumpy and loose. I've no idea why. It seems to work fairly well on flat, smooth surfaces.
It's not too difficult to solder some wires to a blown fuse and run those to a switch, so you can see what you like best.
I know I loved the ABS in a friend's '98 OBS.
To echo what people are saying, don't bother with brake upgrades for rallycross - they only add weight and provide nothing. In rally-x you aren't going to need the heat-sink capacity of bigger rotors.
Get some good pads with good cold bite and whatever cheap rotors you want.
On my stage rally/rally-x car, I have stock calipers, SS lines, Hawk HPS pads, and whatever cheapest rotor I can buy on RockAuto each year. Braking has never been an issue at either stage, street, or rally-x
irish44j said:To echo what people are saying, don't bother with brake upgrades for rallycross - they only add weight and provide nothing. In rally-x you aren't going to need the heat-sink capacity of bigger rotors.
Get some good pads with good cold bite and whatever cheap rotors you want.
On my stage rally/rally-x car, I have stock calipers, SS lines, Hawk HPS pads, and whatever cheapest rotor I can buy on RockAuto each year. Braking has never been an issue at either stage, street, or rally-x
It might be once you have more power. My Neon did okay(not great) with the 2.0. After the 2.4 swap, there were heats where the brakes were pretty much gone by the end. Of course, it didn’t help that it was a two driver car.
eastsideTim said:irish44j said:To echo what people are saying, don't bother with brake upgrades for rallycross - they only add weight and provide nothing. In rally-x you aren't going to need the heat-sink capacity of bigger rotors.
Get some good pads with good cold bite and whatever cheap rotors you want.
On my stage rally/rally-x car, I have stock calipers, SS lines, Hawk HPS pads, and whatever cheapest rotor I can buy on RockAuto each year. Braking has never been an issue at either stage, street, or rally-x
It might be once you have more power. My Neon did okay(not great) with the 2.0. After the 2.4 swap, there were heats where the brakes were pretty much gone by the end. Of course, it didn’t help that it was a two driver car.
I have in the neighborhood of 210 hp and our courses are very hilly with heavy downhill braking zones coming out of fast sections, into slow turns. Not an issue. There is no amount of heat that rallycross can generate that can't be handled by good-condition OEM brakes with good fluid and good pads. I've literally never experienced fade or any other brake issues with this car, even on braking-heavy stage rallies, on tarmac rallysprints (essentially road course tracks) etc.
Could be your Neon just has terrible brakes? What pads are you using?
Here's our course from last weekend, and I brake about as hard as traction allows on the downhill entries
In reply to irish44j :
I usually used OEM or mid grade parts store pads. Boiling the fluid was the usual problem, though. I flushed the brake system at least once a season. It did take a decent amount of left foot braking to get the car to rotate, until I put a sway bar on the rear. Brakes won’t be a problem with the new rallycross car, though, it likely only makes 40-45 HP.
In reply to eastsideTim :
Sounds like you needed to keep your left foot away from the brake pedal... All that's really good for is turning momentum into hot brakes.
eastsideTim said:In reply to irish44j :
I usually used OEM or mid grade parts store pads. Boiling the fluid was the usual problem, though. I flushed the brake system at least once a season. It did take a decent amount of left foot braking to get the car to rotate, until I put a sway bar on the rear. Brakes won’t be a problem with the new rallycross car, though, it likely only makes 40-45 HP.
Yugo?
irish44j said:eastsideTim said:In reply to irish44j :
I usually used OEM or mid grade parts store pads. Boiling the fluid was the usual problem, though. I flushed the brake system at least once a season. It did take a decent amount of left foot braking to get the car to rotate, until I put a sway bar on the rear. Brakes won’t be a problem with the new rallycross car, though, it likely only makes 40-45 HP.
Yugo?
Yugos made way more power. Like 80 something.
I wonder if it would be cheaper to import a Zastava from somewhere in Europe than to find a Yugo in the US. (It's all Hungary Bill's fault, although I'd rather go all-in and import a 2107 or a 2101. Have watched way too many Lada VFTS rally cars on the old rallyfanclub.hu website)
irish44j said:eastsideTim said:In reply to irish44j :
I usually used OEM or mid grade parts store pads. Boiling the fluid was the usual problem, though. I flushed the brake system at least once a season. It did take a decent amount of left foot braking to get the car to rotate, until I put a sway bar on the rear. Brakes won’t be a problem with the new rallycross car, though, it likely only makes 40-45 HP.
Yugo?
Super Beetle with a 1500SP engine.
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