Floating Doc
Floating Doc GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/20/18 8:37 a.m.

I have a 2001 NB2 sport, but since it's a six speed car and already has some illegal for the class mods, I'm going to replace it. The purpose of this car is compete in local ES autocross events. I really like the 01, and have found a low mile sport with a five speed, but then I looked at the results of this year's Solo Nationals. 

I really like the NB2, but the highest finishing NB2 at Nationals was 49th. There's a cluster of 2000's, starting at 41st. 

My purpose for the car, as I repeat, is autocross. If it's more than a week between events, it will be driven to work, a mostly highway 36 mile trip. 

Any suggestions for finding the ideal car? Is the sport that much better than any other 99 with a torsen? Budget up to $6000. 

pinchvalve
pinchvalve GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/20/18 8:41 a.m.

So this:

is significantly faster than this:

 

That's a tough class!  I was expecting one to be a different chassis or supercharged or something.  

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
12/20/18 9:06 a.m.

I wonder if those 99s that win ES are base model 99s? Those are much lighter than the later NBs. Like, up to 200 pounds lighter. They have crank windows and all. I had one and loved it.

Even if it's not a base model, in general the 99s were lighter and floppier than the later cars. The later NBs got more bracing and more frivolous luxury features like usable cup holders and electrical windows.

Floating Doc
Floating Doc GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/20/18 9:19 a.m.

Definitely floppy. I drove a non-sport 01 which is still going to be more rigid than a 99, and it was amazing how much it twisted. my car also has a roll bar and hard top, so it's pretty rigid for an old roadster.

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
12/20/18 9:22 a.m.

Rigidity comes at a cost; I bet you're 200+ lbs heavier than a base 1999, and that's gonna cost a lot on an autocross course. I don't think rigidity lends much benefit to lap times. I could be wrong, of course.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin PowerDork
12/20/18 9:25 a.m.

I thought it was because 99 was the only year they had the 'Hard S' or something which had much higher spring rates?

 

 

KyAllroad (Jeremy)
KyAllroad (Jeremy) PowerDork
12/20/18 9:55 a.m.

While the 99 is the car for big courses, i’ll Throw out there that the MSM is also (weirdly) classed in ES and on smaller courses absolutely kicks ass.  It’s just when you have to row 2-3/3-2 often it has issues.  But worth considering if you want the best version of the NB.

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
12/20/18 10:29 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Hard S was available in later years too.

Floating Doc
Floating Doc GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/20/18 11:16 a.m.

Yeah, the weight difference is the big factor, for sure. I don't doubt the bracing, especially in my car with the addition of a roll bar makes it quite a bit heavier. I also run with a hardtop, but that's not as big of a weight difference than it should be, since I have no soft top. 

rdcyclist
rdcyclist GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/20/18 11:40 a.m.

The hardtop will stiffen the chassis to some degree. They don't require a roll bar for Solo?

What in the world is an "MSM"? And "Hard S"?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/20/18 11:52 a.m.

MSM = Mazdaspeed Miata

Hard S = a suspension package, that's the code on the door sticker

As for power vs electric windows, I measured that a few years ago. 1 lb per door difference. If you're losing to a car with u-wind-em windows, it's not the windows that are beating you :)

With autox, particularly in stock class with the squishy springs, weight is more important than rigidity so the NB2s are at a bit of a disadvantage. Once you get to 2003+, they also have the bigger brakes which means more rotating and unsprung mass.

jr02518
jr02518 Reader
12/20/18 1:33 p.m.

In Southern California, driving in the Cal Club region of the SCCA we have a very active and competitive ES class.  Mr2's, NB's and I am the last of The NA's.  I say that about my car knowing we have earlier cars run occasionally, but we are toast compared to the other cars.

I have driven basically stock Mr2's and find them as fast and or faster than my prepared car.  Having spent this year using my tires on an under construction open diff car I was finishing 3rd or 4th in class.  This is behind the cars that ended up at the nationals, that had lots of money and time invested in them.

In the coming year there will be a 6 speed car in the mix, driver by two drivers that can peddle.  I had the chance to drive the car in October and I now will be adding a few revisions to my '95 in the new year.  Again, I delight in nipping at the heals of people that spend large on a car and can not quite run away from me.

That, and I find the earlier cars better looking. 

spacecadet
spacecadet GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/20/18 1:57 p.m.

The 5 Speed vs 6 speed is the real advantage, no rowing gears. Launch, shift to 2nd and leave it there for the remainder of the run.

Weight is a factor, but the gearbox is a bigger one. 

The nationals results are skewed a bit, you could probably get a front runner driver to get a heavier 5 speed car up near the front, even without a hard S package. But most people who come to Nats who end up at the pointy end spend the time to get themselves the best equipment and go find a NB1. 

I competed in 2017 in ES at nationals in a 99 Hard S with no AC and manual windows. Top 3 cars were on 225/45R15 BFG.

My Co driver Jeff Stuart (a multi time national champion) decided to run the 205 RE71's our car owner had brought even though I had Brand new 225 BFG's we could have run. 

He wished on Day 2 that we had run the BFG's. 

The MSM is also in ES, but the extremely short gearing combined with very peaky powerband make it a bad match for most Autocross courses. But it does win some of the National Tour events, it's very competitive at higher altitudes for obvious reasons. 


just find a NB, make sure it's only got 5 gears and a LSD. power v manual windows is almost a wash in weight, hard S is at your discrection, but they're getting harder to find and the spring rate is only like 8% better? They're still REALLY floppy. 

AC adds weight but it's at your discretion depending on where you live. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/20/18 2:02 p.m.

You can get NB2 with a 5-speed and NB1 with a 6-speed, so that's a different decision. They did change the 6-speed gearing in 2004 with a shorter final drive, which is exactly what it didn't need.

Floating Doc
Floating Doc GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/20/18 2:12 p.m.

Good comments here. Hard S sounds good, until I recall that I'm in Florida. I'll keep my AC, thank you. However, maybe I'm overreacting about how I must have a 99 for my next car. Lots to think about. 

Keith, your comment that the power windows add one pound per side is great. I'll have to remember that one so I can quote you when it comes up (the whole quote, including the part about "...it's not the windows that are beating you."). 

 

jr02518
jr02518 Reader
12/20/18 3:01 p.m.

Don't forget the rim/tire, +/- one inch rule.  What if,  with a 6 speed you ran 16" rims?

 

 

 

  

spacecadet
spacecadet GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/20/18 3:09 p.m.
jr02518 said:

Don't forget the rim/tire, +/- one inch rule.  What if,  with a 6 speed you ran 16" rims?

 

no tire sizes worth it to run a 16". 15" or bust on an NB in ES. 

codrus
codrus GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
12/20/18 3:53 p.m.

If you really want a lighter unicorn you can try finding one of the 99s with manual steering. :)

 

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