A tragic reminder that our passion for cars can sometimes be very dangerous

Jaynen said:

Definitely changed my mind about wanting to instruct at least for now.

I would never tell anybody they should instruct, but the risks of instructing aren't way out of line with the rest of life.  And without new instructors to bring novices along, there are no more HPDEs in our collective future . 

It's really distressing to read about situations like the subject of the original post -- but seriously, to me it seems more like lightning striking than anything else.  I could stay inside unless I absolutely had to go out in the rain, but where's the fun in that?

The hothead situation doesn't worry me enough to put me off.  From what I've seen, if your student isn't following your instructions because he's a hothead, your Chief Instructor isn't running the program right. 

The white knuckle factor in the programs I favor seems to come from students who want to do the right thing, but it takes a fair amount of progressive exercises to get their eyes, hands, and feet wired together right.  That's just from what I've seen over a few years, and admittedly I haven't even finished my instructor training yet.  

I'm betting my safety as a future instructor on my ability to stop the ride at any time, BEFORE a student gets himself in over his skis. 

So, to anybody out there who's working on his track craft, and thinking about being an instructor, this is my pitch for you to keep an open mind, and at least pursue the instructor training before you finally make up your mind.  You could be doing people like yourself a huge favor in the future.

It definitely has to do with mentality, you don't "win" hpde by passing people or promoting to other run groups, and aggressive does not mean fast

Don't fool yourself, you have little to no control from the passenger seat of the car.  Your best bet is the initial interview, if the person is giving you a weird feeling, then pass on getting into their car from the get go.

JBasham said:

Jaynen said:

Definitely changed  And without new instructors to bring novices along, there are no more HPDEs in our collective future . 

Is this true?  Do all HPDE's require instructors these days?  Admittedly I haven't' done a track day for over 10 years and I started track driving well over 20 eyars ago.  I never had a mandatory instructor either at track days or when I got my racing license.  The few times I've had an instructor it's when I sought out someone for advice and they offered to ride along.  As I said on page 1, I did instruct once and once only because it was too damn dangerous and scary.  Other than instructing I've been in the right seat for two offs.  Once getting a ride with a then more experience guy who overcooked it in his Viper which resulted in nothing worse than a cockpit full of mud and grass.  The other was right seat with a friend who in retrospect isn't the greatest driver.  He hit a bump at the apex, got a touch of oversteer, panicked, lifted and we went backwards into the Armco fast enough to wipe out the rar corner of a new Mustang.  Two years later he flipped a car at a race school trying to get his racing license.  He decided discretion was the better bet and gave up after that.

I'd push for less in car instruction until someone has done lead/follow to show they are at least somewhat safe and can take instruction.  Not that it would have helped in this case with a potential medical condition.  These days I'd want an actual pro driver or someone I know and would trust with my life in other circumstances not just on the track before I get in the right seat again.  If I go to a track day and am told I need someone right seat I will explain my prior experience and experiences and explain that I'm open to everything they tell me, but don't expect me to go past 80% with them there.  I don't want anyone else's life on my conscience if something were to happen that wasn't' even my fault (hit by another car for example)  

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

I've had to run more than a dozen track events over my years with AROC- never once did we have instructors, nor did we force anyone to have one.  Also never had problems with Novices, either.

Personally, other than professional schools, I've never understood the huge fascination with instructors that ride with you on a track. 

Someone with SCCA at the National Convention, quoted a statistic to my wife that they have fewer incidents per driver at events with no instructors than there are at events with instructors. Something like 1 in 170 with instructors, to 1 in 220 without. Not the case in this instance, I wonder if there aren't times where instructors push students outside their capability. 

Toyman01 said:

 I wonder if there aren't times where instructors push students outside their capability. 

I don't know about capability, but I was certainly pushed outside my comfort zone. I got better much faster than I would have without an instructor in the car. Whether that really matters long term or makes me any safer is a whole different discussion. 

BMW, Porsche Club and NASA all require instructors to be in the car.  Novice levels for NASA and PCA, pretty much all the levels in BMW. 

I ran with the BMW club for the first time in a decade.  Had an instructor with me for the first time in probably 12 years.  Was fun, but he knew my driving "resume" and flat out told me that he was just along for the ride, probably didn't have anything to teach me.  After the second session he told me that he wasn't riding with me again, that I needed to be an instructor.

Oddly enough, none of the clubs have instructor reciprocity, so even though I've been an instructor with NASA for over 12 years, I'd still have to go through the BMW/PCA training.  I just can't be bothered with that, so I don't...

docwyte said:

Don't fool yourself, you have little to no control from the passenger seat of the car.  Your best bet is the initial interview, if the person is giving you a weird feeling, then pass on getting into their car from the get go.

Hmm, I don't know what happened to you instructing at NASA, but I'm glad it hasn't happened to me yet.  If I want a student to get off the track, that man is getting off the track, period.  This is my club's ground rule.  If it needs to happen before pit-in, that's what run-off areas and black flag all is for.  I'll have some explaining to do, but my CI will have my back.  NASA may say a directed runoff is not safe, but NASA has to stick to a schedule.  A club program has the time to unload the whole track.  I'm not giving NASA a hard time; if you're running a competition program with an HPDE training component integrated into it, the safety rules must take a different approach some times. 

Reciprocity?  Two things there. 

If they were being dicks for making you do a two-session checkout, national insurance says one, so I guess they did impose on you. Shame shame on them. 

Some BMW clubs may need to think about reciprocity, if they want to keep giving instructors three-day weekends for free in exchange for teaching a pair of students Saturday and Sunday.  But if they're covering their costs and maintaining a pipeline of returning drivers, why give discounts to NASA, SCCA, and PCA instructors who are looking for more track time without paying the full BMW weekend rate?  It is a club after all, not a public utility.  I run with two BMW clubs and they're both making that work, with steady wait-lists for student slots AND solo slots.

PCA here will do reciprocity.  Hell, they have to.  Can't join the club unless you own a porsche.  They can't maintain a pipeline of drivers to cover their track costs.  For a while they made it on a race-only format with competition cars, a short race school, and provisional licenses.  But that died off after a while, so they had to go to an HPDE format to get more people showing up.  They have a good turnout of solo drivers, but they need instructors to get people through the pipeline to solo.  They let students and instructors drive all three days, instructors only have to take one student, but they still have to pay about 70% of full price.  And they sub-contract the whole skid-pad instruction operation out to a group of BMW club instructors.  If this all sounds like criticism, it's not; they run a great program here and I always try to fit in as many of their weekends as I can.

SCCA, I don't know.  What are they doing for reciprocity?  Somebody up there said they have a higher rate of incidents with instructors?  And they feel the need for a whole separate PDX program to get people on track, by offering them instruction.  Is that because there are two different markets? 

NASA makes it work, bigly.  I'm told a nicer bunch of folks you will never meet. Maybe all the clubs should do it that way, and then all the tracks would be able to rent out all their weekend slots, and have the revenues to cover unlimited safety upgrades plus repaving every four years.  Then maybe we could have SAFER barriers all the way around the track and nobody would need to know how to drive anyway.

I'm not sure whether I've ranted enough, but I'm going to stop now anyway.  Even an uncontrollable impulse only lasts but so long.

@Alfadriver; one of the reasons I started instructing is that I couldn't bear to see people struggling with the basics. Most things can be fixed without riding along with someone but others can't. Very often you can have them ride with you and people get it straight away. Getting new to the track drivers to understand the concept of steering with the pedals works better if you can ride along. With that said no you don't have to ride along but people learn quicker if you do. Once the fundamentals are grasped then you should just let people get on with it.

As for instructors coaching people off the road; sadly I've seen someone do this. My approach is always to ignore the straights, I want people to learn to get the car to take a set on corner entry. If your rushing up on the turn in point, you're likely to rush the entry and get it wrong. I always thought the Kieth Code school exercise of riding up to a corner at the exact corner speed rather than complicate it with braking. I tell students to pick a gear and then drive the course in it if at all possible, I'm usually able to drive it in 3rd. 

I personally avoid doing the sign off  ride along for faster groups; people do the impress the instructor nonsense which I want no part of. On a final note there are some tracks I would not instruct at, period.

Reciprocity is probably a regional thing. I’ve lived in areas where instructors were thin on the ground and the CCA warmly welcomed outside instructors from trusted partner clubs, like ACNA and PCA. I’ve also done events in areas with wait lists for instructors. No need for reciprocity in that case.

As for “the instructor is always in control” ... that’s a mantra we all shared. Then something happens and you realize that you may be along for the ride in some cases.

I had a very serious wreck (one in which I was badly hurt) in the passenger seat of the most level-headed student in the world. Ex-marine. Very serious. Very cautious. We were in his RX-7 turbo in mixed conditions. Came over the crest of an off-camber hump that he’d been taking perfectly all weekend. The combination of slippery conditions, turbo lag, and slightly misjudged throttle application lead to the rear tires spinning up ... slewing sideways in 4th gear ... and backing into an inconveniently placed concrete bridge abutment.

It can happen, no matter how “in control” you think you are. It’s not only the hot-heads who do dumb things. Good people can make mistakes. 

JBasham, my point is you're in the passenger seat.  You're deluding yourself if you think you have control over the driver/car.  Yeah, you can tell someone to "Brake!" or "Pit now!" or anything else, but its up to the driver to process what you're telling them to do, then ACT on it.  If they don't act on it, you're just there for the ride.  It's important to realize this and make this part of your check list before you get into somebody's car.

The clubs here generally fill their DE's but there are always spaces.  Both BMW and PCA are hurting for instructors, they need more, badly.  However, both clubs refuse to accept my driving resume.  The PCA instructor schools always are when I have Air Force Duty and like I said, I really couldn't be bothered to attend either BMW/PCA IDS at this point.  They know me, they know how I drive, they can easily call my NASA friends and ask them how I instruct. Hell, one of my friends was the PCA CDI and even with his endorsement they still wouldn't give me reciprocity.  If they want me, they'll check me off.

Yeah, fair enough.  There has been some discussion of hotheads and yahoos, and I classified those guys as people who were willfully ignoring instructor directions.  The white knuckle factor from guys who can't execute, get dehydrated, and otherwise screw the pooch, is pretty stressful.  My first couple weekends, I remember my instructor going "brake . . . brake . . . BRAKE!"

Those who willfully ignore your instructions are the same, you're just there for the ride.  Eventually when the session ends and you go back in, then you can have a forceful discussion with them.  I usually don't bother.  I just get out of the car, tell them to come with me and drop them into the CDI's lap and refuse to get back into the car with them.  I'm not getting paid to be an instructor and if they're unwilling to listen to me, I'm not willing to ride with them.

mazdeuce - Seth said:

How do you tell a new student that has worked to become successful and purchased their dream 911 GT3 or Z06 Corvette that they need to go home and buy something slower? I will probably start instructing when my kids are grown because I love the challenge and giving back to the community, but I'm going to need to think hard about this in the mean time.

Someone i knew a whike back, let's call him TM, took an SB2 engine, stroked it to make up for dropping the compression so it could run on pump gas AND make Winston Cup power, and put it in an FC.

After he found himself blowing the tires away at well over 100 at Nelson Ledges, he put a stock Series II 3800 in another FC, so that he could work on his driving first...

And my friends bought TMs 3800 FC. that motor is not stock and that car is plenty fast too!