adding shoulder belts to rear of 40-60 year old car

so

with one kid turning 3 at the end of april, and being large enough to switch to a booster type seat when kid #2 arrives at the end of july, i've got a problem. the small child seats function well with the old school lap belts, and coupled with the old school soft springy seats, crank the seat tight into the car like no car without the latch system can do.

3 of our cars have no rear shoulder belts for the booster seat, and the plan is to transfer new baby over to the big bulky car seat at the same time boosters go into effect for the 3 year old. we bought 2 graco turbo boosters with backrest that will fit him until he needs nothing.

car number one in question is:

plentiful space in the back seat. it currently has lap belts, bolted to the trunk floor behind the seat with large plates sandwiching the sheetmetal. the seat belt kit came with 2" dia washers but i went bigger and plated it. i would love to get some belts out of a car like a 91+ caprice, that mount up on the package tray at the top, but i'm not sure how much reinforcing needs done. new cars have quite stronger package trays than old ones. they also come with plastic covers with a speaker grill built in so i could take all that in one shot and make a new hardboard cover with all that integrated into it. i have plans to restore the interior to mostly stock but have no issues integrating safety features so that the kids can safely ride with me.

so has anyone done this? looking for any kind of insight, pictures, etc. i've been thinking about doing the front seats at the same time just to make things safer than the jc whitney lap belt kit i put in 18 years ago.

when this is a success car 2 to get this done will be the 72 chevelle.

That's so funny you asked that. I was going ask the same thing for the middle spot in my Supercab F150.

Same issue really but probably different solutions.

What kind of structure does the package tray have?

Now that I think of it, I should look at the two rear shoulder belts in my truck to see if they're something you can use...

Is that really a safe option? Not trying to be a smartass (for once), but new vehicles go through safety tests to make sure there are no problems with safety equipment. I don't think you want to go through trial and error the way they do.

Just my honest opinion.

I can't figure this out just yet but I found this: http://www.securon.co.uk/other/seat_belts_centre.htm

In reply to N Sperlo:

There's thousands of built-from-nothing race vehicles that never came from a factory that all need to pass strict safety regulations regarding driver belts and seats. Don't you think with a bit of engineering something could be fabricated?

In reply to N Sperlo:

This car will never be as safe as a new one, but a 3-point belt will help things.

I have been looking at this for my 68 GTO. I see that there are a number of aftermarket kits offered. My current plan is to retain the factory mounting points, and put in a single 3-point belt that uses them all (currently two 2-point belts per side in front).

You could fabricate something for sure. I worry about kidney and collar bone damage. An improvement is better than nothing. A kit would probably be the safest way to go if the measurements were done for the specific build. If not, fabricating something could be just as well.

Juliano's has a line of seat belts marketed to the street rod crowd: http://www.seatbeltstore.com/ Another possibility is http://www.ssnake-oyl.com/ , I have a set of their lap belts in my '61 Bonneville.

Some states legislate answers for you. I remember in CT they had specifications for belts codified in the law, something like must withstand 5000# of force in the direction of travel or 12 in2 of a certain thickness of backing plate.

Worst case wed a roll bar hoop of appropriate size and anchors under the rear deck and triangle brace in the trunk.strong enough for a SCCA harness should hold a couple of 60# kids.

Depending on how the back seat is constructed another option might be to mount a pair of removable rear seats from a minivan with belts built in. The bases would need to be shortened for sure, but being able to fold them down and pass through to the trunk adds another layer of opportunity.

Ok, I'll be the shiny happy person.

No crumple zone. No ABS. No disk brakes. No crash testing that includes the fabricated shoulder belts and mounts. No air bags.... etc. etc. etc.

All of these things are available in a mid 90's car for under $2000.

My kids are worth more than that.

Have you considered the G-force of their brains against the inside of their skull without the crumple zone or improved braking? Even if the belts work perfectly, the rest of the car is a safety disaster.

FWIW, I have added shoulder belts to my '60 Elky, so I am not opposed to it. But my kids ride in it very rarely.

I am hoping this is not your primary ride for the kids.

They'd be MUCH safer in the Vette or the Impala.

I used FB RX7 lap/sash belts for the Ranchero, the factory belts were lap only, with the clip on sash. The RX7 belts are top reclining, easily serviced and with the raised anchor point they fit into cars with tall seats. I only had to change the top mount which I reinforced with plate.

However it is an occasional driver and is not carrying kids.

I looked into this many times and even had it done once. I love old cars and have 3 kids, but I won't let them go anywhere without a 3 point belt.

A lot of good points have been brought up here. You'll need to find a really good anchor point. Also, you really need to make sure the angle of the shoulder belt is correct so that it functions properly. Don't want it going across the neck or pulling down in the event of a crash. I had them added to a '65 Olds once. I put my kids in it a few times. I think it's much better than lap belts alone, but still got too nervous about the rest of the issues to take them in the car often...very poor overall crash protection, etc...

SVreX wrote: Ok, I'll be the shiny happy person. No crumple zone. No ABS. No disk brakes. No crash testing that includes the fabricated shoulder belts and mounts. No air bags.... etc. etc. etc. All of these things are available in a mid 90's car for under $2000. My kids are worth more than that. Have you considered the G-force of their brains against the inside of their skull without the crumple zone or improved braking? Even if the belts work perfectly, the rest of the car is a safety disaster. But my kids ride in it very rarely.

I'll be the next shiny happy person: So you only knowingly put your kids at risk of a horrible death once in a while?

How thoughtful.

I don't mean to be a jerk but it just looked like you do the same thing the op is looking to do but he's the bad guy and you aren't... Maybe i read your post incorrectly.

ebonyandivory wrote:

SVreX wrote: Ok, I'll be the shiny happy person. No crumple zone. No ABS. No disk brakes. No crash testing that includes the fabricated shoulder belts and mounts. No air bags.... etc. etc. etc. All of these things are available in a mid 90's car for under $2000. My kids are worth more than that. Have you considered the G-force of their brains against the inside of their skull without the crumple zone or improved braking? Even if the belts work perfectly, the rest of the car is a safety disaster. But my kids ride in it very rarely.

I'll be the next shiny happy person: So you only knowingly put your kids at risk of a horrible death once in a while? How thoughtful. I don't mean to be a jerk but it just looked like you do the same thing the op is looking to do but he's the bad guy and you aren't... Maybe i read your post incorrectly.

that's how i'm taking it.

it's a cruise night only when the impala isn't going deal. so no, it's not the primary mode of transportation. that's why i drive a giant avalanche with a bazillion airbags and the latch system for kid seats.

hey, the kid likes to ride in the old stuff. he can ride in the gasser when he gets old enough too. granted that will have a cage around him, but still. i don't get the negative blasts from people when i'm trying to make something SAFER. oh lordy i better not take the kids in a car that 40 years ago was the norm, with NO SEATBELTS OR CHILD SEATS.

oh yeah - disc brakes all around

I might start by looking at a Schroth street system and figuring out how to adapt it - fit the buckles it needs to secure points.

Just let them ride in the rear package tray, that's where I rode.

You guys are grossly twisting what I said.

I specifically asked if it was a regular driver for the kids. First response came in the previous post.

And yes, if you'd like to be a shiny happy person, I have knowingly put my kids in a classic car occasionally. Never with a car seat (they were always old enough for adult belts, and wore a race harness).

Total times, less than a dozen, for a combined total of a couple hundred miles, in 48 total years of them being minors.

I also signed them up for baseball, football, and occassionally let them ride in the back of a pickup at low speeds.

Guess that makes me Hannibal Lecter, huh?

Please don't seriously propose that a car without a crumple zone is anywhere near as safe as a modern one, then try to make me the bad guy.

patgizz, glad to hear it is an occassional thing, and I think you should make every effort to expose your kids to the sport. I agree with your efforts to make the car safer (as I have). I do, however, think a car seat in a car like that is foolish.

A high end car seat is a safety cocoon. Halo-type head support, strong lateral support, slightly increased recline to make impacts travel up or down the spine and neck instead of perpendicular to them, harness to spread impact while maintaining secure location, etc... I would absolutely modify the car to include latches for the latch system and decent seat belts. I would then gladly daily the kids in it as well. Just look for/make secure points that aren't attached to things that move during impacts and look to make sure you are belting your kids into a place where bending parts don't come get them.

MrJoshua wrote: Just look for/make secure points that aren't attached to things that move during impacts and look to make sure you are belting your kids into a place where bending parts don't come get them.

There lies the problem. Everything in a car that old moves in an impact, no crumple zone, so all the energy goes through the whole car. Due to that, shoulder belts are getting into diminishing returns in a 50s car IMHO, I don't think its entirely coincidence both technologies showed up around the same time.

Getting in a car that old is somewhat of a calculated risk you just have to deal with no matter what. Lap belts, 2 circuit brakes and a collapsing steering column is about all you can realistically do to improve on without major re engineering of the whole car. Remember, we're talking about a car old enough that it's liable to put the engine in your lap in a bad frontal impact.

MrJoshua wrote: A high end car seat is a safety cocoon. Halo-type head support, strong lateral support, slightly increased recline to make impacts travel up or down the spine and neck instead of perpendicular to them, harness to spread impact while maintaining secure location, etc... I would absolutely modify the car to include latches for the latch system and decent seat belts. I would then gladly daily the kids in it as well. Just look for/make secure points that aren't attached to things that move during impacts and look to make sure you are belting your kids into a place where bending parts don't come get them.

i had thought of that too, for the latch system. but that seems pretty much equal to strapping the big cocoon of a car seat in with a properly mounted lap belt. it's the same principle until you get to the top tether anyway. my truck doesn't even have the hook for the tether and it's a 2005.

the car is nowhere near regular transportation. it didn't even leave the garage last summer. but the little guy has begged me to get it back out. his first trip to the grocery store at 7 weeks old was in the back seat of the chevelle, and he's been hooked on/asking to ride in the old stuff ever since.

Hmmmmm...

I wonder.... if in a car that big you could make a new, optional/temporary back seat that has a pair of kiddy Recaros built into it, then mount "new" rear seat to car......????

The newer the car, the safer. After stating the obvious, there is also almost no car that can't be driven in a safe manner. An old classic driven gently on a cruise night is probably safer than a newer car during the morning commute. Common sense alone with sensible upgrades can make the car hobby safe even for kids to enjoy.

I grew up riding in the back seat or package tray of a 1960 Corvair with no seat belts. I'm still here. Standards are just much different today.