advances in plastics...plastic oil pan in near future...

Good article on advances in plastics

http://www.designnews.com/article/511487-New_Nylons_Boost_Performance_under_the_Hood.php

But scarry thoughts of plastic oil pans.... They'll likely design it to so no metal pan could be made to take its place when it fails down the road....

44

This won't end well.

Apperently no one remembered what happens to composite intake manifolds.

Eh... can't be much worse than the cast aluminum oil pans used in the past... why do I seem to buy cars with fragile, exposed oil pans (E30 & TDI)?

eastsidemav wrote: This won't end well. Apperently no one remembered what happens to composite intake manifolds.

Please to explain.

AFAIK, a LOT of new cars are coming with composite manifolds and they are performing great.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

eastsidemav wrote: This won't end well. Apperently no one remembered what happens to composite intake manifolds.

Please to explain. AFAIK, a LOT of new cars are coming with composite manifolds and they are performing great.

He's probably thinking of the GM 3.8s with the blessed EGR run through the composite?

DILYSI Dave wrote:

eastsidemav wrote: This won't end well. Apperently no one remembered what happens to composite intake manifolds.

Please to explain. AFAIK, a LOT of new cars are coming with composite manifolds and they are performing great.

It is all the ones where someone forget to make it a "dry" intake. Then all the corrosive coolant eats that nice hole in the water pipes and leaks it all out.

Brian

I'm still waiting for my plastic brake hardlines. Why are they still making these stupid things out of rustomatic mild steel? Hello ginormous safety issue? We probably had the technology to make long-lasting plastic ones back in like 1990 already... Sheesh.

I could have sworn somebody was already doing composite oil pans.

Looks like they're already in use on some giant RVs... with questionable results.

And Ford Powerstroke diesels.

I think I'd be OK with plastic for an oil pan.

I remember some mag out of the 70s that had composite plastic wheels on the cover. Guess that went nowhere...(afaik).

Ranger50 wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote:

eastsidemav wrote: This won't end well. Apperently no one remembered what happens to composite intake manifolds.

Please to explain. AFAIK, a LOT of new cars are coming with composite manifolds and they are performing great.

It is all the ones where someone forget to make it a "dry" intake. Then all the corrosive coolant eats that nice hole in the water pipes and leaks it all out. Brian

Bingo. GM and Ford have both done this. IIRC, at least the Ford ones don't dump tons of coolant into the crankcase when they fail, like the ones GM was using. I could be wrong, though. Either way, if I keep the Grand Marquis much longer, I'll be installing the updated 2003-up intake.

Yeah, I'm OK with plastic oil pans also. I have already cracked an aluminum one. Plastic can't be any worse.

I draw the line at move-able plastic parts that break or warp - like water pumps. Who in their right minds would make water pumps and thermostat housings out of plastic.

Cough bmw
Cough mini Cough

Bastards.

bmw is already using plastic transmission pans, started with the e65 7 series and to the best of my knowledge all the current automatics use them. The filter is built into the pan.

Actually, oil pans nowadays are plastic. It just happens to be incased between two pieces of steel for decreased NVH.

Brian

didn't the new beetle/jetta have a cast aluminum pan that would take holes like it was being shelled when hit with normal road debris, like pieces of gravel, then puke out all the oil and seize exactly two seconds after the oil light came on?

also, given that oil change places have tendencies to overtighten drain plugs, and the sorts of spectacular failures that can come from the same in plastic/composite valve covers and intake manifolds, i'd say this has bad idea written all over it.

stan wrote: I remember some mag out of the 70s that had composite plastic wheels on the cover. Guess that went nowhere...(afaik).

'89 CSX had 'em.

Tom Heath wrote: I could have sworn somebody was already doing composite oil pans. And Ford Powerstroke diesels. I think I'd be OK with plastic for an oil pan.

Do previous gen Powerstrokes & other heavy duty trucks use stamped pans? I'd wager a cast aluminium pan would crack just as easy as the ones Ford is putting in the current Powerstrokes.

Lotsa Semis have composite or plastic pans. The plug inserts are where the issue usually is on those.

A lot of intakes are plastic, LS1 for example... They seem to work fine. They might get close to the impact resistance of cast aluminum if they choose right. I can't imagine the weight sayings being that great, must just be cheaper or easier to make.

The closest thing I have to a plastic/composite oil pan is the inspection cover on my Aerostar's rear diff housing. I've done a little damage to it since I've had it from various things I've done around the place here. Like back into a couple logs. Thankfully, it was all kept to the outer edge of the plate.

I got to blow up a plastic intake manifold on a crown vic, it spewed coolant out the intake. I then brought the car to Ford where they told me it blew a head gasket because the "presence of exhaust gas" in the coolant. Well I had just cracked the intake and blow coolant all over but surely that could have been the source of contamination.

I can't see why anyone would be afraid of plastics and composites in an oil pan as if you knock a steel or aluminum one hard enough it will pop. If you are real nervous about it get a skid plate.

I've got no issue with composite intakes or oil pans. Especially intakes: how is something that is cheaper, lighter, and transmits less heat to the intake charge a bad thing?

tuna55 wrote: A lot of intakes are plastic, LS1 for example... They seem to work fine. They might get close to the impact resistance of cast aluminum if they choose right. I can't imagine the weight sayings being that great, must just be cheaper or easier to make.

Your example is "dry", so it works fine.

With plastics, you gain strength through material thickness. Plastics are about half the "strength" of metals, so you double the thickness. Plastics are a MUCH better insulator then metals, so that is why plastics make great intake manifolds. Plus the interior surface finish so much better. Mostly for emissions I suspect.

My information, circa 2000-ish, intake manifolds are built using a reusable lost-core molding process. You start off casting a core out of "tin", it is more then just tin alloy, but the exact stuff escapes me right now. You place the core into an injection molding machine, shoot your shot of nylon in, cool to finish the cycle, and eject the part. You then finish off the manifold with a bath to remove the core material and installation of the threaded or smooth inserts for bolts or pass through for bolts and nuts.

Brian

All I can say here is one thing- if you really think and truly belive that plastic pans are the evil of the world.... Both GM and Chrysler have announced that they are hiring 1000 engineers in 2011. Join them, and find out the true issues.

Reality rarely matches preception. Or have you missed that the 4.6 and 5.0 and 5.4 engines from ford have rods that are made from powder metal? And are cracked?

IIRC, Hyundai/Kia are still hiring, too.

AKA- put your money where your mouth is.

Eric

benzbaron wrote: I can't see why anyone would be afraid of plastics and composites in an oil pan as if you knock a steel or aluminum one hard enough it will pop. If you are real nervous about it get a skid plate.

Which is a plastic material.

Brian

alfadriver wrote: Both GM and Chrysler have announced that they are hiring 1000 engineers in 2011. ... IIRC, Hyundai/Kia are still hiring, too.

Goddamnit.

By the time I could pick up a degree in AE, those jobs would be LONG gone.