In reply to Javelin: other than the fact that the solstice coupe doesn't have rear seats...
In reply to Javelin: other than the fact that the solstice coupe doesn't have rear seats...
I disagree too. The solstice could have been better.. but it certainly could have been a LOT worse.
Greg Voth wrote: I would be excited until I realize that you can get a base V6 mustang that puts down 300 hp and gets 30 mpg for under $24k and will run in the 13's stock. If these actually end up light are priced well and get significantly better mileage I would be suprised. I see them being close 2800lbs getting 33-35mpg and running low 15 second 1/4 miles as they sit. Sound like my wifes Forester but with better mileage and no utility. It would also lack the ability to run low 13 second 1/4 miles with $1500 in upgrades. They will end up like the Genesis. Lots of hype but not spectacular in anyway. I get the small car. Hell I have 4 1st gen RX-7's and a Miata. However I like power which is why one RX and the Miata have V8's. Driving the crap out of a slow car is kind of fun until you get smoked by every minivan / and grandma at the light. Even the built 13b in the one RX-7 would loose its ass to a new Accord.
I think we all agree on the Mustang issue and this is why the genesis failed. However, if this car plays in civic si or mini, or forte koup territory with the power, weight, and price rather than the bigger, badder mustang territory it will be a winner and give guys like me who want a rwd civic si to drive to work it will win. Remember that is what the ae86 was. The sporty version of the Corolla. A fun, economical, rwd economy sports(sporty?) car. I'm thinking even $18-21K for a base n/a model. There are plenty of choices above $22k and pretty much nothing great under that bar.
I have high hopes, but low expectations. Also 33-35mpg? No way, my 2009 corolla get 27 in mixed driving.
They need to either keep it in Civic territory, or hope that they've got something up their sleeve to lob a bomb at the Mustang/G37/Genesis sect.
Like.... oh i don't know.... their 2grfse that they're ALREADY USING IN A RWD CAR?
I don't understand the need to create a new niche. It's cool, and nice. But really, a company this big has the capability come out with something and intentionally compete and actively go after an existing sect and beat the hell out of the existing players. But Toyota's too much of a Bob Costas.
I'm glad i just figured out what i'm going to do to my FT86 if i get it.
Just you wait, all of those famous car mags (not this one - this one is good) that rip on cars for being too heavy, too thirsty and say things like "Sure the V8 adds 200 hp over the V6, but I'd prefer the I4 because..." will slaughter this car in print for not being fast enough in a straight line.
I'd buy it if I was in the mood for a car like that - sounds fun, as long as it's as light as they say. A modern, RWD Civic Si. Perfect. As long as it's physically small to boot, it makes sense. No real competition at all, even from the past 5-10 years.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I'm glad i just figured out what i'm going to do to my FT86 if i get it.
LS7? That's what I would do. but then again, I like powaa
tuna55 wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I'm glad i just figured out what i'm going to do to my FT86 if i get it.LS7? That's what I would do. but then again, I like powaa
Nah, the 2grfse from the IS350. I can't believe Toyota is so shortsighted (wait, yes i can) to not offer that motor as an option. It makes perfect sense, and mirrors the Genesis Coupe strategy. ~200hp for the "base" model, and ~300 for the top model.
That way they get to double dip, and if they can keep the weight around 3000lbs or less for the top model, it should stack up very favorably against the V6 Stang and Genesis.
Out of curiosity, what is it that makes the Genesis 2.0T and RX8 NOT be a competitor for this car? The fact that one has a turbo, and the other has a rotary? Pricing isn't that far off, and i'm sure loaded variants of all three will be within a grand or two of each other.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Out of curiosity, what is it that makes the Genesis 2.0T and RX8 NOT be a competitor for this car? The fact that one has a turbo, and the other has a rotary? Pricing isn't that far off, and i'm sure loaded variants of all three will be within a grand or two of each other.
In my opinion and mine only:
Genesis: The coupe weighs 3400 lb - the FT86 should undercut that by a HUGE 600 lb, hopefully even more.
RX-8, even though it's much closer in weight (200 lb more) and makes very similar horsepower, the thirsty thing is just begging for a sales slump in the land of $3, $4, $5... gas. If the FT86 can manage a real, live 200 hp in a real, live, 2800 lb package and manage 30+ mpg, it will be nearly in a class by itself. I suppose then, the RX is in the same class, it just has a couple of drawbacks for the street. I am sure the RX would mop the floor with the FT86 on the track.
I'd bet my bottom dollar the production FT86 won't be anywhere near it's weight target though. That car will be a heavy pig, like all other modern Toyatabaru's.
Javelin wrote: I'd bet my bottom dollar the production FT86 won't be *anywhere* near it's weight target though. That car will be a heavy pig, like all other modern Toyatabaru's.
Against what? I'll bet this tooth-brushing timer my kid got from the dentist against your bottom dollar. If they come anywhere near their weight target, you send me every dollar you have. If they don't, I'll send you this cool one minute timer with my kids' dentists address on it.
I think I like betting.
I mean, you're probably right, but the timer isn't that dear to me.
See the difference between "I'd" and "I'll" 
It still won't come close to it's target weight. They've already raised the projection once. Oink oink oink.
Javelin wrote: See the difference between "I'd" and "I'll"
A boy can hope, right?
I don't think this pig will have a snowball's chance in making it.
3294Lbs, 2.0T @ 234HP/210TQ, used for around $20K, new for $25K.
3064Lbs, Renesis 13B @ 232HP/159TQ, used for under $10K, new for $25K.
2930Lbs, 2.4L @ 174HP/167TQ, used for around $19K.
Do you really think a 2700Lb (Toyatabaru's latest estimate) hatch with 170HP that costs $27K and up is going to sell in this market? This doesn't even include the convertibles that can be hardtops (S2000, Miata, Sky) or any of the even more capable V6 sport coupes (350Z/370Z, G35/G37, Genesis 3.8, V6 Mustang, etc).
It's already gone up in projected price from $17K to $27K, it's already gone up in projected weight from 2400Lbs to 2700Lbs, and it's already gone down in power from 200HP to 170HP, and been delayed by 2 model years, depending on your sources.
I missed where it got dropped to 170hp...?
And i'm confused.... so do you think it's going to succeed or not? 
IF, and that's a big IF, the specs stay at the current figures, it'll compete with the 2.0T Gen Coupe nicely. Lighter, and only 10hp less. (You flipped your figures)
It'll beat the RX8 out on MPG. (I'd still rather the RX8 anyways)
The Pontiac.... is dead. Next.
If it fails, it's not going to fail because of how it stacks up against the competition. (Assuming of course the specs don't change for the worse again) It'll fail because of a lack of market for such a vehicle. And that's really all there is to it.
Depends on the weight. 200hp and 3000lbs is just OK (but still too heavy for my taste). 170hp and under 2500lbs would be great, I'd consider buying it. The original AE86s were only 90-120hp after all.
for a 197 hp 2400lbs at $17K
for a 170 hp 2700lbs at $27K
Is Toyota that delusional thinking people still believe they make great sporting cars? Maybe the radiation from the power plants is effecting their judgement! (Joke too soon?)
Other than outright dream cars, how do you guys purchase?
I think of price then class.
For $27K I would look at a base model Mustang GT. For $23K I would go Stang V6 with Performance pack and a nice set of wheels and tires.
I think a used RX-8 is a great performance bargain at ~$10K for some very well kept ones.
I think the Hyundai is SOOOOO overpriced it is rediculous. Why is that car not $18~$20K? Get a 2.0t stripped with the track pack for around $21K they would have a winner.
I really don't get some cars marketing strategy.
FlightService wrote: Other than outright dream cars, how do you guys purchase?
Maybe this discussion makes no sense for us. I was comparing new cars to other new cars. I like the Solstice as well, but, jav, I don't see how a two door roadster competes with a four seat coupe. If it did, mazda wouldn't sell a RX8 and a MX5.
Anyway, I have never purchased a car over 7.2k. Ever. And the ones at the top were total econoboxes designed to haul the family. The most I ever spent on fun was 2.5k, followed closely by the Lemons car expenses for three races. I guess, what I am saying, is that I am a terrible person to talk about buying new cars.
I guess that mean I have to hit "add post" and stop adding my thoughts.
I'm so confused... where is everybody getting 170hp?
18K for the hyundai? not a chance. When I bought my 1999 Tiburon off of the lot.. it was an almost 17K car.. and that was over ten years ago
the hp doesn't really matter.... well to some people maybe... but @ $5 per gallon???
As I see it the reason I'm not looking... no longer under 2 million yen (original price point) and it comes in OVER 2500#s.
A loaded AE86 had a mass of about 2460#s, stripped models could easily be trimmed to 1000 kilos.
I can't see this car as an AE86 replacement... too much mass, and money
FlightService wrote:
What about 197 hp (or even 170hp) 2700lbs at $17k. That is what I am expecting them to do and something that will not get lost in the market.
sanman wrote:FlightService wrote:What about 197 hp (or even 170hp) 2700lbs at $17k. That is what I am expecting them to do and something that will not get lost in the market.
Toyata has already said this car will start in the $25-$27K range, so you are already priced out.
DirtyBird222 wrote:Strizzo wrote: Don't forget that the rsx type s and teg type r made 195-200 hp from 1.8 - 2.0 liters. My rsx weighed in at about 2850 and ran a 14.7 1/4 mile. Probably would have been even quicker with rwdarghh, i can't get my FA5 Si into the 14s stock. 15.2@95 is my best run as of now, it's at a crappy track though. But honestly, 200hp from an Si is plenty if the car handles well. I'm tearing it up in the autoxes around central florida with my Si, keeping up with some fast rides....Even at the PDX I recently did I was keeping pace with some Vettes and IT prepped rides. 200hp with the torque from a flat 4 and hopefully a decent curb weight should be fine and should be a mid 14 second car. But Toyota could screw all of this up.
I guess I'm one of the few in this thread that's an HP junkie.
When we bought out Solstice Coupe we got the GXP with 260HP.
Our Mustang is the Mach 1. I also have a 95 GT and the extra power in the Mach 1 is much more appealing to me.
My 85 Carrera is an NA with a little over 200HP and it's a fun car, but I keep wondering if I should have held out for a turbo. (I should have...really no need to wonder)
When I had my MKIV na Supra I regretted from day one not buying the TT.
I hope all you guys that want the low HP engine get it, but I also hope Toyota wakes up and does make an upgraded version for those of us that prefer it.
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