BrokenYugo wrote:Jarod wrote:Yes, "180 degree" headers give the exhaust scavenging benefits (and sound) found naturally in a flat plane (180 degree) crank V8. You never use both together.Storz wrote: That motor + 180* headers would be pants tighteningly awesome.Isn't the point of 180 headers is to emulate a flat plane crank?
Really? Why?
180* headers are designed to pair up the exhaust pulses better on a typical cross plane V8. On a flat plane V8, you can use standard single-sided headers and they'll already be paired up like a 4 cylinder due to the different cylinder pairings / timing.
Nick (LUCAS) Comstock wrote: I just don't like the sound, it sounds off key to me. Ford V8s usually make terrific sounds, this one falls flat. I'm not knocking the engine, it revs to the moon and makes very strong power. Just sounds like ass.
When I think "Ford V8 sound", I think of a 5.0 Mustang with Flowmasters. Basically, Fig. 1 next to the dictionary entry for "Awful".
So if the GT350 sounds different, it can only be better.
Gearheadotaku wrote:BrokenYugo wrote:Really? Why?Jarod wrote:Yes, "180 degree" headers give the exhaust scavenging benefits (and sound) found naturally in a flat plane (180 degree) crank V8. You never use both together.Storz wrote: That motor + 180* headers would be pants tighteningly awesome.Isn't the point of 180 headers is to emulate a flat plane crank?
You wouldn't want to use 180 degree headers designed for a crossplane crank V8 on a flat plane crank V8. Because they would not be 180 degree headers anymore.
In reply to Gearheadotaku:
A normal V8 has the rod journal on two planes 90 degrees apart the 4 rod journals (2 rods each) on 4 points on a circle, the flat plane/180 degree motor has them on a single plane, 180 degrees apart, 4 journals on two points on the circle, like a 4 cylinder crank. This lines the exhaust pulses up more evenly (so one sucks out the next, "scavenging") making it breath better, causes some NVH type problems though, which is why you normally only find them in Ferraris and whatnot. You can get the exact same exhaust pulse timing on a 90 V8 if you use 180 headers which cross 2 of the tubes on each bank to the opposite collector, this is a packaging nightmare so you only see it on race cars.
You could put 180 headers on a 180 crank motor, but you'd negate the benefit or the 180 crank, it would sound and scavenge like a 90 motor. As already mentioned, regular headers are 180 headers on a flat plane motor.
Knurled wrote:Nick (LUCAS) Comstock wrote: I just don't like the sound, it sounds off key to me. Ford V8s usually make terrific sounds, this one falls flat. I'm not knocking the engine, it revs to the moon and makes very strong power. Just sounds like ass.When I think "Ford V8 sound", I think of a 5.0 Mustang with Flowmasters. Basically, Fig. 1 next to the dictionary entry for "Awful". So if the GT350 sounds different, it can only be better.
5.0 with h-pipe and flowmasters is terrific sounding! the new flat plane sounds strange too me, havnt been around one doing anything more then idling but its not what i expected and i doubt ill ever get used too it.
Knurled wrote: When I think "Ford V8 sound", I think of a 5.0 Mustang with Flowmasters. Basically, Fig. 1 next to the dictionary entry for "Awful".
We should start a club, the Chamber Mufflers Sound Like Ass club.
I extremely confident that your ears are broken.
Appleseed wrote: I'd expect to hear that from a Harley guy.
As another Harley guy, the exhaust from my neighbor's Yamaha R1* gives me eargasms.
*Also has a flat-plane crank.
BrokenYugo wrote:Knurled wrote: When I think "Ford V8 sound", I think of a 5.0 Mustang with Flowmasters. Basically, Fig. 1 next to the dictionary entry for "Awful".We should start a club, the Chamber Mufflers Sound Like Ass club.
Some chambered mufflers sound ok on some engines. Usually not engines with tiny cams. But it's really easy to end up with that deep, droning, awful noise you get when some idiot slaps the loudest Flowmaster they make on a stock pickup...
Someone remind me why "Flat plane" crank is so awesome? If it is just the "Noise" it makes I will laugh.
In reply to NOHOME:
Less rotating mass and easier exhaust packaging (see "scavenging" discussion).
It also gives up torque for high rpm power. And it sounds different :) As I said, it effectively turns the bent 8 into two fours.
RealMiniParker wrote:Appleseed wrote: I'd expect to hear that from a Harley guy.As another Harley guy, the exhaust from my neighbor's Yamaha R1* gives me eargasms. *Also has a flat-plane crank.
all inline four cylinder engines have a flat plane crank. It's just how they work.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
The latest R1 actually has a cross-plane crankshaft, but that's the only I4 I can think of which is an exception to that rule.
Flat Plane Crank:
Flat Plane Mustang Headers:
OK so the flat plane crank is an alternative method to achieve the scavenging effect of 180 degree headers.
That is all nice, but other than a race-car, where the high RPM brings the scavenging benefit into effect, why would I want to give up torque down below where I drive everyday? (not that the torque curve is not ridonkulously huge all the way across the board!)
NOHOME wrote: OK so the flat plane crank is an alternative method to achieve the scavenging effect of 180 degree headers. That is all nice, but other than a race-car, where the high RPM brings the scavenging benefit into effect, why would I want to give up torque down below where I drive everyday? (not that the torque curve is not ridonkulously huge all the way across the board!)
You just summed up why the standard Mustang motors aren't flat plane. Between the NVH issues and tending to be very high revving, it's not a solution to every problem.
My understanding is that part of the reason that you're seeing it now and not in the past is that engineering technology has gotten to the point where Ford can dial the design in to tame the engine's inherent vibration issues.
Given that the standard 5.0 Coyote engine tops out at 435 HP, and this one makes 526 from it's 5.2 liters, presumably max power output is a big part of the answer to "why?"
It's really exciting to see America making engines like this. Think about it. We're talking more than double the HP output per liter of the old Ford pushrod 5.0 at a lighter weight and more efficient fuel usage. It's the sort of specific output that we used to only associate with the best from Japan and Germany.
Knurled wrote:Nick (LUCAS) Comstock wrote: I just don't like the sound, it sounds off key to me. Ford V8s usually make terrific sounds, this one falls flat. I'm not knocking the engine, it revs to the moon and makes very strong power. Just sounds like ass.When I think "Ford V8 sound", I think of a 5.0 Mustang with Flowmasters. Basically, Fig. 1 next to the dictionary entry for "Awful". So if the GT350 sounds different, it can only be better.
lol i agree with you but I remember some old guy before told me modern mustangs sound like E36 M3 on learning I own a 2014 GT.
As much as I love the Chevy LS for their power density and packaging, I really wish they sounded like the cross-plane Ford engines.
Great motor. Climbing power curve hits the rev limiter well before it stops pulling. Great track motor because of the progressive power and torque, but a Coyote would make just as good (maybe better) an autocross motor with it's super flat torque and power curves.
Sound is subjective, but I like it a lot. Really lets you know what the motor is doing without ever getting harsh.
NOHOME wrote: OK so the flat plane crank is an alternative method to achieve the scavenging effect of 180 degree headers. That is all nice, but other than a race-car, where the high RPM brings the scavenging benefit into effect, why would I want to give up torque down below where I drive everyday? (not that the torque curve is not ridonkulously huge all the way across the board!)
It does not give up torque down low. It just makes it easier to make power up high. See the difference?
One does not buy a 315ci engine that makes way over 500hp naturally aspirated and then complain that it can't do a burnout in 4th gear from an idle. Well, some people would.
Mind you, this is with warranty and with current smog cleanliness. And it makes more power than an original 5.0 and a Boss 302's real power figure, combined.
Found this on the Car and Driver site.
Torque curve is pretty steady above 3500 rpm.
That looks like it wants to be shifted at a little over 9000 rpm.
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