In reply to plance1: Not at all, more competition is a good thing and a "Camry" running a purpose built V-8 and RWD is absolutely ridiculous.
OTOH, an A8 welded up running an uncorked W-12 side by side with a screaming flat-plane Maserati both chasing down an LS powered Chevy and Coyote Ford would be pretty darned cool. Nascar is too homogenized and bringing in variety would be interesting.
slefain wrote: Just take the drivers out of the cars:Put each driver in a simulator seat, remove all the speed limiters from the cars, put up strong catch fences, and let the best operator win.
So you want to turn NASCAR into another F1 series? 
Klayfish wrote:dean1484 wrote: We don't hate for the sake of hating it is we are getting old and remember how it was. It was not broken then now it is. That is the problem.But in general, the actual cars and overall product is much better than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
Here's your problem right here, when you view racing as a "product" you know we're all doomed....this sentiment is how nascar leadership feels, its just a "product" or "brand"
Drag racing changed the point system the year after the top fuel championship was decided on the final run of the final race, and only because the winner also set the ET record on that very same run.
It was as close as you could ever want, but they still monkeyed with it.
TV's make things stupid I think.
fixed that for ya......
NOHOME wrote: The adjustments, which include breaking each race into three segments separated by a caution flag, was hailed as a "better racing format for our fans, PERIOD" according to Donald Trump, and "the best racing you've ever seen,PERIOD" per Donald Trump.
Maybe this is all a good thing in the long run. The general consensus here is that it was better 30 years ago. I see these changes driving current fans away and not drawing in new ones. So less fans equals less money and less coverage which drives away sponsors, which also equals less money and less grooming and polishing of the drivers. With less money involved and drivers that are more real, won't that make the sport a lot more like the "good ole days"?
plance1 wrote:Klayfish wrote:Here's your problem right here, when you view racing as a "product" you know we're all doomed....this sentiment is how nascar leadership feels, its just a "product" or "brand"dean1484 wrote: We don't hate for the sake of hating it is we are getting old and remember how it was. It was not broken then now it is. That is the problem.But in general, the actual cars and overall product is much better than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
Yeah, but... isn't it? I mean, we all love the purity of racing, but at the end of the day it's an entertainment business whose goal is to make money.
The hardcore fans will stay with it no matter what, they are trying to attract new casual fans like the ones they had 10-15 years ago when NASCAR was the "it" sport. Yes, they are alienating folks like us who are general racing fans first and NASCAR fans second, but to be frank, there just aren't that many of us.
Of course F1 is way ahead of NASCAR. Last year they totaled screwed up qualifying by eliminating the slowest car every 90 seconds or so. Nobody, but nobody, was confident where they stood until they got waved off the track for a bad lap at the wrong time. Lasted two races (I think) before reversion to the old format. I don't think this format will last till Bristol.
My approach has always been to shorten the races. Do all three series on the same day, short races, every, lap, counts. It would seriously hurt their bottom line, but it would make for a seriously fun day of racing. Sure, keep a couple endurance races in there like Daytona, but for all the fast tracks and short tracks, chop them down.
fasted58 wrote: The fight should have a tire iron segment... just to keep a little NASCAR history in it.
"Why, I'm gonna... (pulls tire iron)"
"(pulls revolver) Gonna do what?"
"...Just look for a place to set this tire iron down"
iceracer wrote: In the early days they would sometimes do three races in a weekend, short tracks, dirt and paved. Same car. Towed with a box truck and open trailer. My how things have changed.
In Richard Petty's autobography, he talks at length about how they used to flat-tow their race car with a street car. The left-turn-biased alignment on the race car would shove the back end of the tow car constantly and they would go through so many tow-car rear tires that they never bothered/could afford new tires, they'd keep throwing whatever used tires they could find on the cars.
Box truck? Trailer? That was for the rich guys!
Knurled wrote:iceracer wrote: Box truck? Trailer? That was for the rich guys!Just like the paddock at a club race these days!
gearheadmb wrote: Maybe this is all a good thing in the long run. The general consensus here is that it was better 30 years ago. I see these changes driving current fans away and not drawing in new ones. So less fans equals less money and less coverage which drives away sponsors, which also equals less money and less grooming and polishing of the drivers. With less money involved and drivers that are more real, won't that make the sport a lot more like the "good ole days"?
I think this is pretty much the truth, other than the overdog problem...which existed back in the 60's in the form of Richard Petty.
I have caught a few races from the old days, that I had watched in the old days, and they didn't have the pull that some of the new races do. I don't think the racing has gotten worse, I think its the tracks. Daytona and Talledega are dinosaurs, and without running restrictor plates would be death on wheels, and not only for the drivers. Almost all of the modern 1 1/2 milers will be improved dramatically by the new cheesy format, because those tracks all suck the wet end so very badly it makes me, well, nap through them. Darlington, Bristol, Martinsville and such still produce really fun racing, because the tracks are cast iron bitches, and it takes a dude with big stones and a boatload of talent in a well prepped car to win there.
TL;DR version- Bulldoze all the big tracks and build nasty weird narrow tracks that make the drivers sweat.
Two other thoughts. Am I the only guy that watched the full Nascar season, and the full F1 season? I like them both for what they are.
Second, I'm prepared to give the three segment race a shot. I know its contrived, but the middle 495 miles of a Michigan race needs something to keep my attention.
And a third thing just popped into my head- Could somebody kidnap Michael Waltrip and remove his vocal cords? That would improve Nascar coverage more than anything else.
Pretty simple here. All chassis are based on REAL, ROAD-GOING, PURCHASABLE vehicles from the manufacturer. Must be four doors (makes it the "family sedan"). Suspension can be whatever, but must connect to the factory points. Street tires. Auto or manual, but no sequential. All parts must come from the manufacturer, this means no ford axle in a chevy. No maximum on power. All the aero you want, but no sucker cars. Standing start, Driver begins out of car. "Moonshine" jug In All trunks provides a limited amount of octane boost. All drivers and pit crew MUST have long hair.
In reply to Streetwiseguy:
If you find someone to take help Mikey I'll kick in a couple bucks.
Streetwiseguy wrote: Two other thoughts. Am I the only guy that watched the full Nascar season, and the full F1 season? I like them both for what they are. Second, I'm prepared to give the three segment race a shot. I know its contrived, but the middle 495 miles of a Michigan race needs something to keep my attention. And a third thing just popped into my head- Could somebody kidnap Michael Waltrip and remove his vocal cords? That would improve Nascar coverage more than anything else.
I watch most of the NASCAR season, though I admit that once the NFL starts, I tend to watch that more than NASCAR (turn the race on during commercials). Hate F1, don't watch a second of it.
Michael Waltrip is OK as an announcer...not the best, but not the worst. I do think Mike Joy does a really nice job.
I really liked the couple of races that DE Jr was in the booth. I thought he was really good.
In reply to dean1484:
I've been really impressed with his developement as a public speaker. He was a mush mouthed teenager until a few years ago, and today seems so much more confident and intelligent.
His color commentating was really well done.
iceracer wrote: Odd, but the drivers seem to be OK with it. Often, one third of a race equates to time for a green flag pit stop, barring crashes. Maybe the drivers won't be stopping every time there is a yellow flag for a crash. Much strategy for the crew chief to figure out. The usual 500 mile race CAN get boring.
The drivers seem ok with it because they are fined if they say anything negative about NASCAR.. it's why Smoke retired last year and why Carl Edwards just quit this year..
Tony retired because he knew it was time, like Richard and Jeff. Carl ? We will have to wait. Never heard him badmouth Nascar.
plance1 wrote: Here's your problem right here, when you view racing as a "product" you know we're all doomed....this sentiment is how nascar leadership feels, its just a "product" or "brand"
Sorry to say it, but the day an event starts being formally organized is the day it becomes a 'product'. This includes the amateur stuff like club racing, autox, time trials, track days, crap can, and the $20XX and Ultimate Street/Track car Challenges...Hell, even social stuff like car shows, cruise-ins, and cars-and-coffee type gatherings are all 'products'in their own right. It's just a matter of what their product is and who they're selling it to.
The day that event goes "pro" is that day that product changes to match the revenue stream, and the marketing along with it.
Look how "sports car" racing has changed.
In the beginning you could drive to the track, run your race and drive home. Then cars got faster and more safety items were added and on and on to today. NASCAR was much the same. When the manufacturers started playing games as to who had the faster car, nascar had to do something. Some of their ideas weren't so great.
The present system puts more emphasis on the drivers and teams.
Would a stock sedan/coupe on street tires last 100 miles. Tires probably would be the first failure if the wheels don't break first. Over heating would be next . And so on.
So todays auto racing is the result of progress I guess. Is it better ? Hell no but it is what we have.
We have to remember that when this all started, few cars could hit 100 mph, more like 85. Now my Fiesta will easily do that
In reply to iceracer:
You gotta realize the "family sedans" these nascars are based on are sloths BECAUSE NASCAR let them get away with it. If NASCAR said "you'll run the factory chassis, no tube frames" we would have a badass impala/Monte Carlo/Grand Prix/ etc. and I'd bet it would be the next day. "If you build it, they will come."
Bill France Sr. always referred to it as "the show". It is entertainment, and has always used to be managed as such. I think the focus has moved to the short term dollar, from the long term development, and the negative side of the change is showing. Don't forget, they had the same points format for over 2 decades, now we're in the 3rd version in less than one. All in pursuit of the short term dollar.
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