Flight Service wrote: 98-00 Z3M is an experience all unto itself.
+100hp for the 01-02 cars :)
Flight Service wrote: 98-00 Z3M is an experience all unto itself.
+100hp for the 01-02 cars :)
roninsoldier83 wrote:
... Absolutely correct, buying a weekend/sports car is a completely emotional decision! What's happening now is my rational side is trying to hit the brakes before I make a completely emotional decision that could come to haunt me financially down the line...
That still sounds a little like fear trying to wrap itself in reason.
You seem to have an analytical mind. Try asking a different question. A good rule of thumb with used car shopping is always to put 20% to 30% of your budget aside for repairs and differed maintenance that you find after you bought the car. In the case of a Boxster, you might want to do more. Look at the sum total and ask, "How can I afford this?"
That S2000 looks great! But it's hard to deny the appeal of the 987...
No, it's quite easy. I don't think it's that attractive, it's expensive to buy and expensive to maintain and it evokes no wants in me, like any Porsche. Denied.
Tough choice, they are both really cool cars.
I have an AP2 S2000 currently, & I want to sell it and get probably a Cayman S. However, I like the car a lot, I'm more so just wanting to try something different, and I'm worried that naturally aspirated Porsche pricing will keep rising.
LanEvo wrote: Buying a 2-seat convertible sportscar for occasional weekend canyon runs is an irrational choice to begin with. If you over-think it and end up with something you're not passionate about...then what was the point of the whole exercise?
I agree with that line of thinking. Although I really do love both of these cars. I've taken the AP2 S2000 on 2 lengthy test drives and couldn't stop smiling both times. They really are a blast to drive and I've had my mind set on the AP2 for quite some time as I've continued to save up enough cash to buy a nice example outright.
No matter which car I choose, it'll be something I love, as both of these cars are an absolute riot to drive on a twisty canyon road!
Type Q wrote: That still sounds a little like fear trying to wrap itself in reason. You seem to have an analytical mind. Try asking a different question. A good rule of thumb with used car shopping is always to put 20% to 30% of your budget aside for repairs and differed maintenance that you find after you bought the car. In the case of a Boxster, you might want to do more. Look at the sum total and ask, "How can I afford this?"
There is absolutely a bit of fear wrapped up in this decision! Being a bit cautious has saved my ass a few times in life! Hell, there's more than a few times in life where I wish I would have slowed down and been just a bit more wary!
Truly I love both of these cars, and wish I could afford both of them; but I'm trying to be honest with myself about what I can and can't afford if either of them were to suffer a mechanical failure. Both of these cars will see track duty, so I believe it's a legitimate concern that I should be taking into consideration. I'll be paying for either car cash, but that doesn't mean I have endlessly deep pockets.
Worst case scenario for the P-car, I won't have another $15k-$20k sitting around if it popped an engine; whereas digging up the cash for a new S2000 engine if it suffered a failure is far more within my means. From my research, it looks like used S2000 motors go for between $2000-$4000 and brand new longblocks from Honda are closer to $6000. To boot, swapping an S2000 engine would be a job I would be comfortable performing in my garage... the Porsche? Not so much. And that's without even factoring in the odds that the Honda would be less likely to suffer a failure in the first place.
Ultimately, I'm not willing to dig into my retirement, my home equity or any of my investments to replace a motor in a weekend play-toy. I always try to budget emergency funds, but budgeting for the Porsche might be a bit tricky.... I'm not saying it's a forgone conclusion, but with the long list of engine failure issues they're known to have ( http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/13-ENGINE-Common_Engine_Failures/13-ENGINE-Common_Engine_Failures.htm ), it's certainly not an unwarranted concern. Honestly, if it weren't for the staggering potential mechanical failure repair costs, the P-Car would have a bigger edge in this fight.
As of right now, the little lady isn't exactly thrilled about the cash that I'll be spending on a play-toy, but she understands my "needs" (she has a '13 WRX and a Honda CBR600), so she doesn't complain a whole lot about it. However, if I had to shell out big money on P-car repairs, she might not be so understanding haha!
On the fun scale, if the 987 is a "10", for me the AP2 S2000 is probably a "9.8" in the canyons. The AP2 S2000 was "the 10" in the canyons, just prior to driving the 987 S. And if I'm constantly worried about expensive repairs on the 987, that's going to take the fun factor down drastically.
Before I bought my '15 WRX (new) I set my budget and test drove a long list of cars.... I could've bought a used Audi S4 for similar money, but ultimately took a step back and my practical side kicked in. The result? I love my WRX! It's fun, efficient, practical, cheap to run and thus far it's been dead reliable despite all the miles and canyon runs I've done in it. It's been a good car and I don't have one regret. I don't need to take the expensive German car option in order to enjoy myself and have a good time. 
After careful consideration I think I'll probably end up in the S2000. I've wanted one for quite a while now. Maybe if my pockets get a bit deeper down the line, I'll consider stepping up to the P-Car. But for now, I think a nice, low mileage, well maintained AP2 is one of the best cars that I can reasonably afford. And no matter what, I'm confident that there will be a smile on my face. 
You won't regret getting the Honda. I have an AP1 that has been absolutely reliable and puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. The constant concern of expensive repairs would take away a lot of enjoyment of getting the Porsche.
Am I the only one remembering Keith Tanner telling us a new Miata will run down a S2000 on track?
I love both the S2000 and the Boxster. But at this point you truly need to eliminate logic.
Get the Porsche if you love it. Get a good PPI and make sure you follow the maintenance schedule. If it scares you that much I know founders credit union sells Carmax's extended warranty company cheap.
S2000 is an awesome car. Especially being from Honda as it is a rare bird from them. The value will continue to go up and if you don't kill the S2k in mileage, wad it, or mod it, will probably have zero loss in value or go up. Just a little more money you could get an NSX which we know will go up.
Or you could get a used Miata in 18 months as I have seen used 2016s $3k off of sticker so a year old one should be in your budget.
Sometimes the Answer is still the answer
I have opinions on which car, but i also have an opinion that says no matter how good my opinions are, this thread will go on retreading the same major points ad infinitum until people get tired of listening to themselves type the same thing over and over whether i add my .02 cents or not.
So i'll save myself the effort typing out the logic and reasoning and just say: S2000.
Flight Service wrote: Am I the only one remembering Keith Tanner telling us a new Miata will run down a S2000 on track? I love both the S2000 and the Boxster. But at this point you truly need to eliminate logic. Get the Porsche if you love it. Get a good PPI and make sure you follow the maintenance schedule. If it scares you that much I know founders credit union sells Carmax's extended warranty company cheap. S2000 is an awesome car. Especially being from Honda as it is a rare bird from them. The value will continue to go up and if you don't kill the S2k in mileage, wad it, or mod it, will probably have zero loss in value or go up. Just a little more money you could get an NSX which we know will go up. Or you could get a used Miata in 18 months as I have seen used 2016s $3k off of sticker so a year old one should be in your budget. Sometimes the Answer is still the answer
An nsx for 20+ grand? where, I'll take it.
I have seen 200k mile NSXs for ~20k that i would have been perfectly willing to buy if i was in the market for an NSX. I have two 330-340k mile Hondas that make good compression and good oil pressure on 0-20w.
I waited until page 3... but if it were my own dollars I'd vote 996 over Boxster S, S2000 or 370Z.
Vigo wrote: I have opinions on which car, but i also have an opinion that says no matter how good my opinions are, this thread will go on retreading the same major points ad infinitum until people get tired of listening to themselves type the same thing over and over whether i add my .02 cents or not. So i'll save myself the effort typing out the logic and reasoning and just say: S2000.
I say Mercury Villager...because it takes a village. 
I've read a lot of horror stories about the cost to replace the 987's engine if it popped. Today, I decided to call and speak with Adam from Rennstall about realistic expectations in regards to maintaining a 987. For reference, Rennstall is a local Porsche specialist shop that appears to have a solid reputation. Here's what I took away from our conversation:
-They do a lot of IMS bearings on the 986 cars, but obviously it's not serviceable on the 987's (except early 2005's). He said the failure rate of the (2006+) 987's is much lower, likely closer to 3% or so, and mentioned that most of those failures were on low mileage cars. It sounded like it was rare to see later 987's in his shop for IMS issues.
-These cars need new clutches about every ~80k miles or so. He explained that the clutch on a 987 should be soft and if it's hard, that's a sign that it is getting closer to failure.
-He mentioned that many of them have RMS leaks and IMS leaks. I got the impression that it was best to just take care of these at the same time as a clutch replacement.
-He mentioned that if I drove one, I should make sure to get it nice and hot in order to check for head gasket failures. He explained that the labor to swap head gaskets is around ~50 hours and at that point, you've pretty much taken the engine apart and as such, you might as well just rebuild the whole damn motor while you're in there. Signs of a blown head gasket= run, don't walk.
-I asked about realistic prices for engine replacement if it was ever needed. He said the labor on the job is generally around ~20 hours or so and that I would likely be looking to pay $2000-$3000 in labor alone. The cost of the motor depends on a lot of factors.... he said 986 S engines can usually be found used for ~$5000 or so and here lately he's been able to find early 986 engines for as cheap as $2500 or so. He went on to say that the 987 engines are going for closer to $10,000 (I've seen a few from $6000-$8000 online though).
He explained that he believed the prices for 987 engines would be going down in the near future. He said the formula that is generally accurate for these cars is that the motors sell for between 1/3 to 1/2 of whatever the cars are selling for on the used market. Which makes sense with how "cheap" I've seen 986 engines going for as there's a big pricing gap between the 986 and 987.
Obviously these are used engine prices and full rebuilds would cost a lot more.
Anyway, I just figured I would share this info with anyone that was considering ze Porsche.
Flight Service wrote: Am I the only one remembering Keith Tanner telling us a new Miata will run down a S2000 on track? I love both the S2000 and the Boxster. But at this point you truly need to eliminate logic. Get the Porsche if you love it. Get a good PPI and make sure you follow the maintenance schedule. If it scares you that much I know founders credit union sells Carmax's extended warranty company cheap. S2000 is an awesome car. Especially being from Honda as it is a rare bird from them. The value will continue to go up and if you don't kill the S2k in mileage, wad it, or mod it, will probably have zero loss in value or go up. Just a little more money you could get an NSX which we know will go up. Or you could get a used Miata in 18 months as I have seen used 2016s $3k off of sticker so a year old one should be in your budget. Sometimes the Answer is still the answer
Funny you mentioned the ND, as I had a similar thought process... I even took the new ND on 2 thorough test drives, hoping that I would like it more than I did. Wrote a short novel about my thoughts on the ND: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/new-2016-nd-miata-or-ap2-s2000/108947/page2/#post1963607
Cliff notes about ND:
-Too cramped for my frame (6'2", 210 lbs); yes, considerably more cramped than the S2000. -Boring engine that wasn't much fun to rev. -Lots of body roll. -Poor steering feel.
^^^Some of those things can be fixed, but not the fact that I don't fit comfortably in the ND. I felt like there was more room in the last NC I drove...
In reply to roninsoldier83:
There was more room in the last NC you drove. Remember the ND is the same size as the NA/NB with a little better ergos, NC was the largest of the 4 cars.. I am 6'4", 240 and 33" inseam and I fit in the ND like I did my NA with a foam-ectomy. It is tight, but liveable and with a better seating position than a FR-S.
Like I said earlier, get what moves you. You tried the ND, it didn't do it for you. You seem like you want a P-car but are scared of a 3% failure rate. The S2000 has it's own issues (I remember the transmission being one) but it is a great car.
Get what your heart wants. Sports cars aren't always about logic. If they were Lotus cars would have never been in existence.
FWIW I have never been a fan of sports cars as investment pieces. Not that some aren't, it's cool that something is tangible actually has value. I think it is sad that all the engineering and time and effort to make a dynamic adventure gets stuffed in some rich pricks garage like bearer bonds in a vault. What a waste. I would rather have a 200k+ mile 911 996 Turbo with two bashed fenders and road rash on all 4 wheels, than a 993 GT2. I would be afraid to drive the damn thing. Hard to enjoy.
Figure out what you want and what you want to do with it. Then follow your gut down the right path, because in reality you really don't have a bad play here except the one that doesn't make you smile.
Flight Service wrote: In reply to roninsoldier83: There was more room in the last NC you drove. Remember the ND is the same size as the NA/NB with a little better ergos, NC was the largest of the 4 cars.. I am 6'4", 240 and 33" inseam and I fit in the ND like I did my NA with a foam-ectomy. It is tight, but liveable and with a better seating position than a FR-S. Like I said earlier, get what moves you. You tried the ND, it didn't do it for you. You seem like you want a P-car but are scared of a 3% failure rate. The S2000 has it's own issues (I remember the transmission being one) but it is a great car. Get what your heart wants. Sports cars aren't always about logic. If they were Lotus cars would have never been in existence.
I think the ND has a similar amount of room as my NA and NB MSM did with a foamectomy... but in the ND the center console feels larger/more obtrusive and the angle my right leg was at caused me some knee pain. Deal breaker. I also felt like the ND's windshield was closer to my face while driving and felt more claustrophobic for me...
Off topic: I think my old MSM was actually a good bit more fun to drive than the new ND, which was pretty disappointing...
I would like to drive the AP2 back to back with the P-car, but unfortunately, that's a tough thing to accomplish, as it's hard to find either of them locally; much less at a dealership around the same time. AP1's and 986's are much more common around here.
I think I probably prefer the 987S over the AP2 if I'm being honest with myself, but I need to be able to afford expenses for either of them. Replacing a tranny on the S2000 is a much easier pill to swallow vs an engine for the 987. If replacing the 987's engine was a $4000-$6000 affair (all in), I don't know if I would be having this conversation...
Although the S2000 is more of a blank canvass, which is appealing... the 987 would require more maintenance, whereas extra funds for the S2000 would likely just be spent on improving the car. Being able to turn my own wrenches and replace pretty much anything that broke is very appealing and adds to the car's fun factor IMO.
In reply to roninsoldier83:
Could you swing a direct engine swap in a 987 with your skills, more importantly can you afford the 3.2/3.4/3.6 engine on it's own?
Most I have read while studying is if the motor goes, might as well upgrade while you're in there.
I see your concerns and raise you an obnoxious answer to most of your questions.
Clean LS S2k
Carry on...
Flight Service wrote: Am I the only one remembering Keith Tanner telling us a new Miata will run down a S2000 on track?
With Keith behind the wheel of the ND, was it known the quality of driver in the S2000?
In reply to 84FSP:
Oh man, I would daily the snot out of that.
I drove a 2006 Boxster today with 100k miles on it and really enjoyed it. It far surpassed the driving experince of the 35k mile 2008 Cayman I had tried before AND it was $10k cheaper. So I guess it really depends with these cars. I've looked into mechanical repair insurance and have gotten quotes of $1200 to $3000.
Flight Service wrote: In reply to roninsoldier83: Could you swing a direct engine swap in a 987 with your skills, more importantly can you afford the 3.2/3.4/3.6 engine on it's own? Most I have read while studying is if the motor goes, might as well upgrade while you're in there.
Good questions... I'm confident that I could swap out an S2000 engine on my own, or with a bit of help from local buddies; but the 987... I'm not as confident.
As far as being able to afford the engine itself, it depends. Can I swing the price of a used block? Probably. The early 3.2L (2005-2006) seems to be a bit cheaper than the later 3.4L. However, I would be a bit hesitant to swap in an unproven ~50k mile block, especially at such a high cost. When you factor in rebuilding a used engine to ensure long term reliability, it pushes me past the level where I can reasonably afford on any given day without racking up credit card debt, and I'm not confident enough in my own abilities to rebuild one on my own.
I haven't really found anyone that offers fully rebuilt blocks for a decent price on the 987's... for the 986, a rebuilt block seems to run about $10k after being reimbursed for a core charge: http://www.vertexauto.com/showitem.aspx?&id=293715&name=Porsche%20Boxster%20S%203.2%20Rebuilt%20Engine%20%20Years%2000-04
^^^All in, we're talking 50% or more of the worth of the car... I have to keep reminding myself that no matter how cheap they are these days, these cars were $70k+ brand new and repair prices reflect that accordingly.
From what I've read, upgrading to a 3.6L adds a considerable amount of money to the cost and those engines seem to demand more of a premium.
In reply to 84FSP:
Sweet car for a cheap price! From what I've read, the LS swap into an S2000 picks up around 150-300 lbs depending on how it's built (tranny, diff, axles, ect). I wonder how it affects the weight distribution.... either way, I'm sure it would be fun to tool around in!
In reply to mblommel:
I've considered mechanical repair insurance, but most of them have clauses about engaging in motorsports and I'm planning on the occasional HPDE and autoX event. I'm not concerned with autoX, but track days on the other hand... I would hate to buy a car that I was too afraid to bring out on a track! If it was just a fair weather weekend getaway car, that's probably the route I would take.
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