At what point is one "ready" for a real race car?

Driven5 wrote: The question appears to be in regards to the nut behind the wheel being ready, rather than the wallet being ready.

Yes, that's what I was getting at. I know I'm still learning but I'm also watching what I'm doing to my Miata (which serves as a dual purpose car, but it's sliding closer and closer to track car territory). A lot of people suggest that it's better to stay with a street car on street tires for a while (presumably because you'll hit things at lower speeds due to lower grip levels) and that's where my question is coming from.

Driven5 wrote: You simply have to be willing and able to drive the car within YOUR limits at first, rather than the cars limits.

That's the plan anyway, and one of the reason my Miata works well as a mobile chicane...

It is my life's goal to buy a vintage Formula 5000 and campaign it. I'll probably die in a car like that.

It seems to me that any car can be a track car to a greater or lesser degree of fun. What makes something a race car is compliance with a sanctioning body's rules and the ability to be competitive within those rules. Thus, if you don't have a sanctioning body yet you don't need a "race car"

But i'll be the first to admit that alll that logic is useless when you are drooling over a fast car with a for sale sign on it.....

So just do it already!

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Common wisdom says when you reach the top rung of HPDE or decide W2W is for you... but I'd say it's time when you make the decision to get a rollbar. When you say to yourself "I'm going kinda fast - I should safety up a bit" - that is the time to jump in with both feet and quit playing around with street cars.

I think I've reached that point - I'm getting concerned about the lack of door bars in my rollbar'd Miata, I tend to wear a fire suit on the track (something to do with having tracked plastic cars in the past) and have moved from three point belts to FIA harnesses, currently on non-FIA seats but I'm planning to fix that.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: The slow iterative process of turning a street car into a race car is tons more expensive than buying a race car and unless you possess a crystal ball about what class you might end up in... it's not going to fit well anywhere when your done.

I am just building the Me-Otter as I want it to, because I'm targeting time trials types of events with that car. It won't fit into any class, but it's still streetable so far and I'd like to keep it that way. Not a cheap way to build it properly, though, as you said.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Race cars are the perfect tool for race tracks. It's simple - get the right tools as soon as you can.

That's what I was thinking. Of course the one big downside is that with a "proper" non-street legal race car, I'd also need something to tow it with.

Mind you, I've been thinking about that already because I'm not super comfortable driving the Miata to events that are 200+ miles away in case I stuff it so a truck might be on the cards either way.

BoxheadTim wrote:

N Sperlo wrote:

aussiesmg wrote:

N Sperlo wrote: What IS a real race car?

A dedicated race car, is how I took it.

I guess we need to know what Bohead wants to race, then. You can start as low as a couple hundred and work your way up very quickly.

What I want to race: What I can afford to race: http://bringatrailer.com/2013/12/02/bat-exclusive-1983-toyota-starlet-cup-racer/ http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/cto/4225766893.html http://reno.craigslist.org/cto/4184747649.html http://www.racingjunk.com/Vintage/182009544/DATSUN-B210-Vintage-C-Sedan-Road-Race-.html Or something like oldskewltoys' FF (but I didn't see the ad in time...)

I say go ahead and pull the trigger on a car like that (except maybe the Spitfire). I doubt they are faster then your Miata (if they are, it probably isn't by much). The only thing is if you want to vintage race make sure the cars would be eligible in the series you want to race.

^What sanctioning body are you going to run with?

It's pretty easy to pick a class in NASA TT and build your Miata to that while still doing HPDEs.

Miata's are competitve in TTE/TTD/TTC is well-driven.

Sounds like it's time to stop mucking about and dive into the deep end.

I road raced motorcycles in the 90's and sprint karts in the early 00's before taking a break for a few years. Once I got a '98 M3 I did:

• 1 year autocross w/ tires only w/ a "fun group".
• 1 year autocross w/ STU prep level w/ SCCA
• 1 year SCCA PDX + NASA HPDE events - solo'd at the 3rd one.
• 1 year PDX instructor + NASA TT events.

...The car at this point had a roll bar/seats/harnesses and I was wearing a HANS and Nomex. So:

• Bought "bargain" Radical Prosport D sports racer (aka, the lowest lap time race car there is, pretty much, albeit a fairly primitive one)
• Did an SCCA double race school, got my provisional comp license.
• Did my first season. Got my regional comp license and peeled my rookie stripes off after race 2, went from group backmarker to running near the front.
• Swapped in Hayabusa motor, new wiring, dash, fuel system, etc. over winter break and much of next season. Got my first class win at Labor Day double.
• Backed car into tire wall, Summit Point T8, Saturday qualifying of final event of season.
• Bought molds, made body, completely rebuilt car down to last fastener, went all-in for 2013 season.
• Won 10 of 13 rounds, 5 overall group wins, season championship.

What did it take? I've multiplied the original purchase price of the car by a factor of 2.5. I'm on my 2nd trailer and tow vehicle. I spent something like 84 days on the last rebuild and race season. My tire budget for this season was about $4k. The race entry fees/towing/hotels/food/incidentals had to be another $5k

If you don't lose your mind and decide to win a season championship like you're The Wehrmacht steamrolling the rest of Europe, it can be less hateful from a cost and time standpoint.

The first time you race someone for 14 laps, make the pass stick on the white flag lap and hold them off to the checker? You'll be hooked for good.

After 2 autocross seasons I acquired a "real' race car (an ITB prepped MK2 Golf). I got super excited about doing track days, time trials, and hillclimbs. I then learned the cost of those activities and turned that ITB Golf into a GP autox car. No matter what you drive, you'll need a license/training to compete which means someone has to think you're sane enough to operate your vehicle at the limit. When are you ready? My answer was when I could afford $1000 weekends, a truck, and a trailer. I'm now racing karts.

Lots of truth in this thread.

I did it when I got bored with HPDE and wanted to race W2W before I was too old. Hence, the Spec E30. Not wanting to wad up something of value (my previous Audi, worth $3500) I built a race car from a $1000 donor and now have a $10,000 car I regularly risk wadding up.

Race weekends cost in total about $1000, so when you can afford to blow that kind of money several times a year, you're ready to go racing. Unfortunately, I can no longer afford that kind of entertainment, so will probably be going back to a street-ish car once the E30 finds a new owner.

A race car sucks to drive on the street, if it's legal. Towing sucks. Hooking up a trailer in the rain after a long weekend sucks. Having to buy tires you don't really like because that's what you have to use sucks (bite me, Toyo). It's not as sexy as it appears.

I look at it this way from a driver standpoint: I'll run what I have until I'm driving it as fast as I feel I can. When I've extracted all of the speed out of it my talent allows, I'll move on to something with more power/speed. Whether or not I'm racing, TTing or just farting around with HPDE's has become sort of secondary. I could just keep my 'race' car and use it for lesser things, but it's almost too comfortable and easy to drive. Time for something a little scarier.

I jumped into a dedicated race car (my hillclimb, AX and HPDE car) when I realized I was much better off balling up a dedicated race car than balling up my daily driver.

That's the same rationalization I used when I raced dirt bikes; if I wadded the bike up bad on Sunday I could still get to work on Monday. This got driven home again at the last HC when my co driver had an off. If that had been my DD I'd have been in a bad spot, 150 miles from home with a bent car.

A dedicated race car does carry some baggage: you need a tow vehicle (in my case it's my DD) a trailer or tow dolly and a place to store it. The good part is no insurance is needed and it can sit for a while if other things take center stage.

Tim, you asked when the driver is ready. From a skills perspective, I think most anyone can step into a low-powered race car, e.g. 100-150 HP in a production car. If you're not fully confident in your skills, run street tires first.

Street tires are easier not so much because you're going slower, but that they give up grip much more gradually. They are also more communicative. When you can make street tires sing most of the way around the track, you're ready for race tires.

David

I think anyone is ready to buy something like a spec miata and do HPDEs with it to learn. Do you know how to drive a manual? They you are ready to do that.

Buy a Spec 944, Miata, E30, do HPDEs, buy a truck to trailer it, done.

To me, the answer to "when do I get a racecar?" seems to be: when you don't need an instructor/passenger seat.

If you still feel that you have a lot to learn from in-car instruction, then you should stick with something street-based that will have a passenger seat. If you and your instructor(s) feel like you've learned everything that you're going to pick up through those sessions, then I'd say it's time to ditch the extra seat and get a "real racecar" if that's the direction you want to go.

Better question, are you up for an addiction. I've autocrossed, had nice street cars, classic sports cars (still own a 74 Mini Cooper), but for me nothing compares to lap after lap of racing your brains out with bunch of guys and girls with the same mind set. I started autocrossing soon after my 16th birthday, started racing Formula Fords at 19 years old and haven't been back to parking lot solo event since. So the idea of picking a car that you can also drive on the street, autocross, or time trail may not be of value if all you want to do is race wheel to wheel. If you have money you are will to feed an addiction with, your transition to get you out on track should be straight forward. For those financially challenged, it's obviously a little more difficult. Saving money while still having a competitive race experience is a different topic that maybe I should start on another day. But the best advice I will give you is to make friends with a racer in your area that is running or has run the same class you are looking to run. I've been mentoring a friend for the past year, he approached me and told me he was looking to get into a formula ford. I helped him purchase (I actually found the car and was tempted to buy it for myself) that was within his budget knowing he would need to put some money into it before hitting the track. Long story short, he entered an SCCA drivers school and after the first session he was hooked. After his first season which experienced a blown engine, right rear suspension damage, selling his 300+ bhP WRX for a Astro Van tow vehicle DD, he is still addicted and looking forward to next year.