Heard in an Audi radio commercial, verbatim: "Did you know the new Audi A4 has electo-mechanical steering? So now, a car that had awesome steering has even awesomer steering!"
Nothing like brazenly touting your deficiencies as if they were features.
Heard in an Audi radio commercial, verbatim: "Did you know the new Audi A4 has electo-mechanical steering? So now, a car that had awesome steering has even awesomer steering!"
Nothing like brazenly touting your deficiencies as if they were features.
Did you know the new Audi turns liquid fossil fuel into mad mechanical energies, yo!?!
I have driven a couple of audis (and innies) and I found the BMW has even more awesomer sterring Yo!
does it have "big shiny wheels" like the Toyotas do in their commercials?
mad_machine wrote: I have driven a couple of audis (and innies) and I found the BMW has even more awesomer sterring Yo!
Yes, but the BMW has struts and the Audi's don't, so that can't be true ;)
Maybe they want to distinguish direct-drive electric from electro-hydraulic (although i don't think any production cars use it). Or they're working on turning the wheels directly with magnetic fields.
I don't get the MS connection
Sultan wrote: I don't get the MS connection
Touting your deficiencies as "features."
Actually, I think Colonel Korn in Catch-22 may have been the first:
Colonel Korn said: You know, that might be the answer – to act boastfully about something we ought to be ashamed of. That’s a trick that never seems to fail.
This is why words like "proven" and "time-tested" are used so heavily in advertising 
GameboyRMH wrote: Maybe they want to distinguish direct-drive electric from electro-hydraulic (although i don't think any production cars use it). Or they're working on turning the wheels directly with magnetic fields.
This. BMW uses totally electric steering on most of it's cars now. That's an electric motor with a gear that spins a jackscrew that turns the wheels. It's slow to react, provides less steering feel than a 1970's American Land Yacht (surprise surprise, because it uses a recirculating ball!), and generally sucks in every application.
Electro-hydraulic is a "normal" rack & pinion rack powered by hydraulic fluid except the pump is powered by an electric motor instead of an engine-driven accessory. These can be tuned like any normal power steering from full-on Buick float to Miata precision.
SlickDizzy wrote:Sultan wrote: I don't get the MS connectionTouting your deficiencies as "features."
I still don't get it but thanks for responding.
Sultan wrote:SlickDizzy wrote:I still don't get itSultan wrote: I don't get the MS connectionTouting your deficiencies as "features."
What microsoft said
http://the-y.squarespace.com/issue-4/i-remember-clippy.html
How the rest of the world felt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rl5SOuq6-g
novaderrik wrote: does it have "big shiny wheels" like the Toyotas do in their commercials?
I hope so, as a guy I really like them in a car. Ooh and sleekness. Does it have a lot of sleekness to the body? I like a well grounded car with Rimz and extra sleekness when my wife is driving me down to Candleworld to pick up those little smelly things on the toilet tank. And she doesn't know it but sometimes while she's driving I take a peek in her purse and see if my man bits are still in there.
Javelin wrote: This. BMW uses totally electric steering on most of it's cars now. That's an electric motor with a gear that spins a jackscrew that turns the wheels. It's slow to react, provides less steering feel than a 1970's American Land Yacht (surprise surprise, because it uses a recirculating ball!), and generally sucks in every application.
It's possible to make it work OK, the NSX, S2k and Toyobarus use it.
GameboyRMH wrote:Javelin wrote: This. BMW uses totally electric steering on most of it's cars now. That's an electric motor with a gear that spins a jackscrew that turns the wheels. It's slow to react, provides less steering feel than a 1970's American Land Yacht (surprise surprise, because it uses a recirculating ball!), and generally sucks in every application.It's possible to make it work OK, the NSX, S2k and Toyobarus use it.
None of those cars have completely electric steering. They are all EPAS, the electric-motor driven hydraulic pump steering, which can be very good (as you pointed out).
No full-electric (no hydraulics at all) steering setup has been any good at all, so far. C&D just did an article on it in the new BMW's loathing them.
JoeyM wrote:Sultan wrote:What microsoft saidSlickDizzy wrote:I still don't get itSultan wrote: I don't get the MS connectionTouting your deficiencies as "features."
woe that is an old reference!
Javelin wrote: None of those cars have completely electric steering. They are all EPAS, the electric-motor driven *hydraulic* pump steering, which can be very good (as you pointed out). No full-electric (no hydraulics at all) steering setup has been any good at all, so far. C&D just did an article on it in the new BMW's loathing them.
Huh?
The EPAS systems I'm aware of have no hydralics at all. Just big wires going into the booster. And they are still mechanically connected- early versions didn't boost. I think they work well, and are far easier to tune than hydralic is- since you can have high boost at parking, moderate boost in town, and low boost everywhere else.
Is BMW full electric, or is there still a mechanical link if the EPAS fails?
alfadriver wrote:Javelin wrote: None of those cars have completely electric steering. They are all EPAS, the electric-motor driven *hydraulic* pump steering, which can be very good (as you pointed out). No full-electric (no hydraulics at all) steering setup has been any good at all, so far. C&D just did an article on it in the new BMW's loathing them.Huh? The EPAS systems I'm aware of have no hydralics at all. Just big wires going into the booster. And they are still mechanically connected- early versions didn't boost. I think they work well, and are far easier to tune than hydralic is- since you can have high boost at parking, moderate boost in town, and low boost everywhere else. Is BMW full electric, or is there still a mechanical link if the EPAS fails?
According to wiki, Edmunds, and everything else in a google search, the three vehicles mentioned have a "normal" hydraulic rack and the power steering pump is powered by an electric motor, instead of driven off of the engine accessories. Granted, I don't have an NSX, S2K, or an FRS here in front of me to confirm, but I did also find replacement power steering fluid reservoirs for all three in the same search, so it sounds correct.
I have no idea what systems you are talking about, as the NHSTA still hasn't cleared an all-electric version with no mechanical link for sale in the US. Mercedes (IIRC) just got an exemption for one with a back-up linkage that would re-connect with a clutch if the electrics failed.
The BMW ones that I read about in C&D use an old-school recirculating ball steering rack that had an electric motor literally turning the ball. They slammed it as the worst steering vehicle since cars had tillers.
I was sure at least the Toyobarus and NSX were direct-drive electric. I know for sure the Yaris is available with one, the AE86 guys like to swap those in.
Javelin wrote: According to wiki, Edmunds, and everything else in a google search, the three vehicles mentioned have a "normal" hydraulic rack and the power steering pump is powered by an electric motor, instead of driven off of the engine accessories. Granted, I don't have an NSX, S2K, or an FRS here in front of me to confirm, but I did also find replacement power steering fluid reservoirs for all three in the same search, so it sounds correct. I have no idea what systems you are talking about, as the NHSTA still hasn't cleared an all-electric version with no mechanical link for sale in the US. Mercedes (IIRC) just got an exemption for one with a back-up linkage that would re-connect with a clutch if the electrics failed. The BMW ones that I read about in C&D use an old-school recirculating ball steering rack that had an electric motor literally turning the ball. They slammed it as the worst steering vehicle since cars had tillers.
I would belive that the NSX and S2K are hydralic- both are fairly old, I kinda doubt that the FRS is. EPAS has been out for at least 4 years now, and it would be quite likely that the FRS is just a version of the modern fully electric EPAS.
BTW, EPAS is not fully electric steeting, as Nissan has suggested. It's Electronic Power Assist Steering. The one I know of just replace the hydraulics with an electric motor. The wrack is bigger than before, but since it's one unit as opposed to an engine mounted pump + the rack....
EPAS isn't new, and isn't all that high tech anymore. If it took Audi 4 years to put it on, and now it's a "feature"- well, you can draw your own conclusions.
again, EPAS is not fully electric steering, it's electric assist as opposed to hydraulic. I'm pretty sure F1 cars are EPAS.
Yep fully electric steering (like the GM HyWire concept) is called steer-by-wire, and I'm really not looking forward to it...
Will it be grounded to the ground?
GameboyRMH wrote: I was sure at least the Toyobarus and NSX were direct-drive electric. I know for sure the Yaris is available with one, the AE86 guys like to swap those in.
Sorry man, everything I can find online says otherwise.
alfadriver wrote:Javelin wrote: According to wiki, Edmunds, and everything else in a google search, the three vehicles mentioned have a "normal" hydraulic rack and the power steering pump is powered by an electric motor, instead of driven off of the engine accessories. Granted, I don't have an NSX, S2K, or an FRS here in front of me to confirm, but I did also find replacement power steering fluid reservoirs for all three in the same search, so it sounds correct. I have no idea what systems you are talking about, as the NHSTA still hasn't cleared an all-electric version with no mechanical link for sale in the US. Mercedes (IIRC) just got an exemption for one with a back-up linkage that would re-connect with a clutch if the electrics failed. The BMW ones that I read about in C&D use an old-school recirculating ball steering rack that had an electric motor literally turning the ball. They slammed it as the worst steering vehicle since cars had tillers.I would belive that the NSX and S2K are hydralic- both are fairly old, I kinda doubt that the FRS is. EPAS has been out for at least 4 years now, and it would be quite likely that the FRS is just a version of the modern fully electric EPAS. BTW, EPAS is not fully electric steeting, as Nissan has suggested. It's Electronic Power Assist Steering. The one I know of just replace the hydraulics with an electric motor. The wrack is bigger than before, but since it's one unit as opposed to an engine mounted pump + the rack.... EPAS isn't new, and isn't all that high tech anymore. If it took Audi 4 years to put it on, and now it's a "feature"- well, you can draw your own conclusions. again, EPAS is not fully electric steering, it's electric assist as opposed to hydraulic. I'm pretty sure F1 cars are EPAS.
I know that EPAS isn't full electric, read my original post way up top explaining the difference between it and full electric. And even the rack-mounted ones use hydraulic fluid, there's just a lot less of it, but it's still there, hence electric assist.
Again, the first full-electric ones didn't come out until this year or so (see some of the new BMW's).
EPAS can be tuned to be very nice. It's still mechanically connected to the wheel, it's a normal rack & pinion, etc.
The full-electric steering just use an electric motor direct on the recirculating ball for the power assist. They are new, and awful. They still use linkage. Linkage-less (not really, again, they are still there with an emergency clutch) literally just got approved for sale in the US.
Javelin wrote:GameboyRMH wrote: I was sure at least the Toyobarus and NSX were direct-drive electric. I know for sure the Yaris is available with one, the AE86 guys like to swap those in.Sorry man, everything I can find online says otherwise.
Not sure how much this helps, but this recall- http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+prius+eps+pinion+shaft+nut+june+2011+recall+faq.htm
is about the 2001-2003 Prius, and it's pretty clear that they system is 100% electric. The press release uses Toyota's acronym EPS for the system.
Moving onto the FRS- this suspension feature list http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S/specs/#category=suspension shows that the FRS system uses the aforementioned EPS system.
Based on that, I would say that the FRS uses the EPS or otherwise known as EPAS system and is not hydralic.
Javelin wrote: I know that EPAS isn't full electric, read my original post way up top explaining the difference between it and full electric. And even the rack-mounted ones use hydraulic fluid, there's just a lot less of it, but it's still there, hence electric *assist*.
Reference? Other than a lubricant, it makes no sense at all to have a combo system like that. Why pump liquid when you can assist with an electric motor? Too many steps.
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