I know, round and round and round we go, the AADD stops only when the wallet does.
Our contestants today are a modded foxbody, a Mk III Supra Turbo, and a if one can be found for similar money, a sport-model BMW 3-series (i.e. 3XXis or M3)
They're competing on grocery runs, multi-hour trips over freeways and/or mountain roads, and local non-SCCA-classed autocross.
Foxbody has home advantage, but it's already beat up.
Who wins and why?
All three... The 3-series with the 5.0 swapped in with two turbos from the Supra. Does this help? 
hrdlydangerous wrote: All three... The 3-series with the 5.0 swapped in with two turbos from the Supra. Does this help?
You, sir, are frankly a genius of epic proportions. If you get this monstrosity to a challenge I shall be your biggest fan.
That's a single turbo supra, unfortunately. But maybe it comes with a spare? A 5.0 huffing two CT26s would be... pretty damn fast, for sure.
Anyways, the heaviest is the Supra... but strangely, that would be my choice. Turbo, looks awesome, comfy as hell, not lacking aftermarket, motor is incredibly strong, and it'll likely be faster in a straight line for cheaper than the others.
Despite their weight, they DO handle well.
The M3. I am a fanboi... but that does not diminish the overall awesome of the E36 M3.
As a street car - razor sharp handling, great motor, huge trunk for groceries and fold-down rear seats, great overall "feel" and comfortable all-day driving. Oh, 22-27 mileage too. Did I mention that it is also pretty?
As a race car - when the NASA GTS challenge field takes the green the E36 M3s straffe thru the American Iron cars (including a sea of Fox bodies) like water pouring thru a colander and often take the overall win. An example... at NASA MA's last trip to NJMP Lightning the qualifying time for pole was a 1:14.1 for American Iron. The last race I did there... the top three spots were GTS3 E36 M3s at high 1.11 and low 1.12s. That is a pretty typical difference even though it wasn't on the same day in this case.
As an auto-x car... who cares? 
The supra is not in this hunt unless there is a drag strip on the way to the grocery store. 
Supra. Boost is fun and parts are cheap.
Yeah, I've heard a good amount of the Supra's fat can be trimmed simply by replacing the wheels and seats. Not sure how true that is, though. Supra also has the advantage of everyone being scared of those motors' headgaskets, so they're a bit cheaper than a turbo I6 RWD elsewise would be.
Also, what's the bolt pattern on the Supra? I've heard Mustang wheels interchange...
ReverendDexter wrote: Our contestants today are a modded foxbody, a Mk III Supra Turbo, and a if one can be found for similar money, a sport-model BMW 3-series (i.e. 3XXis or M3) They're competing on ....and local non-SCCA-classed autocross.
89-93 Mustang LX 5.0 Saleen 2900 lbs. 1624 lbs. on front wheels 205 hp
89-92 Supra Turbo 3600 lbs 1872 lbs on the front wheels 232 hp
93-98 Supra 3210 lbs 1637 lbs on the front wheels 220 hp
93-95 BMW 325i 3000 lbs 1500 lbs on front wheels 189 hp
Stock I'd place pretty high odds on my lowly 1994 325i not to mention a ZHP or M3. Once you get to ESP level prep with a lot of suspension work, wide wheels, and R-compounds the Mustang looks a lot better, but the M3s are in BSP. Not sure there is much advantage to a BSP E36 M3 over a DSP 325/328 hybrid though.
A N/A MK4 Supra would be a better choice. I'd say that Supra, the BMWs, and maybe even the Ford are pretty decent choices for STX.
MKiii Supra turbo is about 3500-3700lbs depending on options.
It's heavy, but doesn't FEEL that heavy.
An E36 M3 simply isn't going to happen for the same price.
Would i rather an E36 M3? Absolutely. Do i like the fact that clean MKiii Supra Turbos can be had for PEANUTS? Yep. Much more, in fact.
Later MKiiis start at 232hp/254tq.
We are bringing a fairly clean MKIII Supra to the Challenge this year. It should be quick and hopefully the quickest caveman car. 
Okay, so let's say no M3... limit it to an E36 323is/318is or E30 325is/318is.
I wish I had more experience with fox-bodies.
I had an M52-powered E30, and it was civilised (compared to my 2002, anyhow), quick, and managed to mix it up with the local Street Modified contingent to a significant extent (didn't manage any wins in the season or so I ran it, but was usually in the top third of the field IIRC).
I will say for a street/autocross car, in my limited experience, the torque from the VANOS-equipped 2.8 liter M52 makes a huge difference over the M20 from a stock E30 325. I would also never drive an E30 without a faster steering rack swapped in. I did briefly, and I got really sick of having to hand-over-hand just to turn the corner at the end of the block. I never autocrossed it like that and it sounds awful.
But I never fell in love with it. That fact makes me doubt the magical BMW-ness being worth as much over the "pedestrian" (joking) Mustang. If you can make it stick and drive/handle in a satisfying fashion, thrust seems much easier to come by in the Mustang.
ReverendDexter wrote: Okay, so let's say no M3... limit it to an E36 323is/318is or E30 325is/318is.
That isn't saying no M3 it is saying no M3, 328, or 325. Hell, why not limit is to only 318 automatics if you want one of the others to look better?
ReverendDexter wrote: Okay, so let's say no M3... limit it to an E36 323is/318is or E30 325is/318is.
Why those choices?
I got a 1994 325i Sport because that was the last year an LSD was available on the I-6 non-Ms. There were also 150 1994 M-Technic 325is which had everything except the engine from the 1995 M3 LTW, but those don't seem to be cheaper than the M3s, but that interior is arguably the nicest.
1998 323is was a one year only model. It was a detuned 2.5L version of the M52, not an M50TU.
For autocross it is definitely 325>328>323>>E30s. The 328 is probably a better daily driver. Though, I have a feeling that the LSD>traction control in the snow.
I limited it to those options because I don't really know BMWs all that well, though that the only way to get LSD was with an -is, and figured those would be the only -ises that would be similar in price to the Supra.
In terms of Bimmer knowledge, consider me at the point where I know that the last two digits don't actually correspond to the displacement in deciliters. I only drove my first Bimmer here about two months ago (E36 323is auto).
And just to reiterate, whatever it is will be competing in non-SCCA classed autocross. Where the SCCA puts stuff is just shy of irrelevant for me.
ReverendDexter wrote: And just to reiterate, whatever it is will be competing in *non*-SCCA classed autocross. Where the SCCA puts stuff is just shy of irrelevant for me.
Yeah, other rule sets could make a very different car be desirable. The SCCA classing, despite all of its problems, is definitely the best. I know I could really exploit the classing rules my local BMWCCA chapter uses, if I wanted to. I think the quote is, "BMWs are like Legos." Swapping parts between the various models and even generations is pretty easy.
The E36 is a good chassis. Certainly a V8 works well in one, but the stock BMW I-6 M5x engines are all very nice. Get the nicest 325 or 328 you can find. If you are dead set on a V8 swap you could get a E36 318 (I might actually like the cloth upholstery.)
The E30 is just not as good a chassis, and it is not just the lack of the Z-axle rear suspension. Yes, It is smaller and lighter, but with the 6 cylinder it is only really lighter in back, and the M20 I-6 in the E30 325 is actually pretty light. Putting a heavier engine in the E30 just makes the handling that much worse.
Ford. Biggest aftermarket by far (there are whole magazines published monthly just for Fox/SN95 Stangs). Least expensive parts, both to modify and maintain. Easy to work on. V8 = best sound.
Yea I'm going to have to go with the 5.0. Cheap buy-in, it won't break as often as the BMW, and when it does, parts will be cheaper. Probably easier to work on than the other two. Can be made to handle nearly as well as the BMW, and the money you saved buying it over the Lead Sled can be used to bolt a supercharger to it's engine, making it faster than the Supra. And there's no denying the awesome sound of a supercharged V8 spinning at 5K (if they even rev that high haha).
Depends on which tincan you can tolerate the best.
Personal opinion here, no way in hell would I go with the Supra "boat" even if it made 900rwhp. So, that leaves the flexible Fox and the luxurious Bimmer. Toss up to me, but I have different priorities then you, aka family and MPG's, so I would choose the Bimmer. Or I would actually say Fox-4.
Twin_Cam wrote: And there's no denying the awesome sound of a supercharged V8 spinning at 5K (if they even rev that high haha).
It does, it just doesn't make any power up there (I've put mine on a dyno, peak power is at 4200 and after that it drops like a rock).
Twin_Cam wrote: Yea I'm going to have to go with the 5.0. Cheap buy-in, it won't break as often as the BMW, and when it does, parts will be cheaper. Probably easier to work on than the other two. Can be made to handle nearly as well as the BMW, and the money you saved buying it over the Lead Sled can be used to bolt a supercharger to it's engine, making it faster than the Supra. And there's no denying the awesome sound of a supercharged V8 spinning at 5K (if they even rev that high haha).
I bet it is much cheaper to reach 500hp in the Supra then the Mustang (head gasket, ARP head studs and turbo) and IMHO the Supra out handles the 'Stang.
4200? Shoot, my NA 5.0 motor liked 5400 best.
I don't buy a lightly modded Fox bodied Mustang being cheaper/faster at autocross than a lightly modded E36 325. I am sure we are talking street tires here, not R-compounds. There is only a slim possibility that a Fox body Mustang might be competitive in STX-like prep. I certainly didn't see where the OP mentioned drag racing... and I'd definitely want an E36 on those mountain roads.
HStock - Correct, no drag racing.
93EXCivic wrote: IMHO the Supra out handles the 'Stang.
How does the MK3 Supra Turbo overcome the weight penalty to out-handle the Mustang?
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