And I think we can debate all day whether having to replace rod bearings at so many miles is okay or unacceptable.
But as this data from Hagerty shows, rod bearing issues or not, there is demand for these cars. So, I figured, let's get and share some usable info on them.
In reply to David S. Wallens :
I think mine is in better than #4 condition ... yet you bring me $29k and I will put a bow on it and throw in an oil change and two extra set of wheels 
CrustyRedXpress said:All those numbers are with no modifications. Honestly don't know if they are at the crank or wheel though.
Those are crank numbers, figure 15-20% less at the wheels.
Although looks like some deals are out there as BaT sold a six-speed M3 with less than 100k for $16,250 this summer. Was that an anomaly or the new normal?
David S. Wallens said:Although looks like some deals are out there as BaT sold a six-speed M3 with less than 100k for $16,250 this summer. Was that an anomaly or the new normal?
That one went cheap even by pre-pandemic standards.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Totally. I was waiting for the gotcha and didn't see one: clean title, no SMG conversion, no big issues.
Sounds like the fact that a dealer sold the car for an individual caused an issue or something?
David S. Wallens said:Totally. I was waiting for the gotcha and didn't see one: clean title, no SMG conversion, no big issues.
Sounds like the fact that a dealer sold the car for an individual caused an issue or something?
I didn't dig all the way through the comments, but there was nothing obvious to me. I guess sometimes auctions just fall flat like that, and that's what reserves are for?
I paid $15K for mine in 2018, but it had an SMG, the undesirable gray interior, and some cosmetic paint issues. None of those were relevant to the race car build (it was going to get an E36 5-speed no matter what), and I was happy to pay $6-8K less than what a nice 6MT car would have cost.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Guess they can't all be winners.
The lesson here: If you're on the hunt, keep a close eye on all sales because you might get lucky.
ddavidv said:Berck said:Just... how is it that anyone finds it acceptable that any car built in the last 20 years wears out rod bearings faster than most cars wear out timing belts?
What he said.
Defenders of the Sacred Roundel seem to accept this as part of life but to me it's simply piss poor design. Couple this to all of the other things that fail on the E46 platform and you can keep 'em for yourself.
Although I never cared enough about the E46 M3 to consider one given the problems, the E90 M3 always tickled my pickle, and I did do quite a bit of research on owning one over the last few years.
BEBearings seems to think the S65 bearing problem stems from too tight clearances, and large manufacturing tolerances. They have a page dedicated to it, and even though its incredibly dry, it was a very interesting read.
IIRC their findings led the OE supplier Clevite to write a paper on it. It was something like Nominal rod bearing clearance for an S65 was around .001 maybe .00125. Which is about half what a decent clearance would be in a performance motor. Add into the equation stacking from the large tolerance of the other parts and with everything in spec the actual rod bearing clearance could range from half the nominal clearance (probably a quarter of what would be considered decent) .0006 (explaining the super early less than 10K mile failures) to over .0021 (much closer to what youd want explaining the higher mileage cars not having bearing issues.) Also they speced a super thick oil which is terrible for super tight clearance, and you cant run a thin oil because those are terrible for high revving performance engines.
Take their findings with a grain of salt because they are trying to sell you bearings, but I think the info seemed pretty solid when I read it. Regardless Im firmly in the "design flaw" camp, which is said because I love the cars, but I just cant wrap my head around rod bearing being a maintenance item on an incredibly expensive to repair or replace engine.
In reply to Opti :
FWIW, I went into this knowing rod bearings were likely in the car's future. Part of these projects, though, is to learn more so we can then discuss it.
More updates on the M3 to come as a box from BimmerWorld just arrived.
The VANOS service was the single biggest improvement I made to my M3 . . . it's likely my solenoid had started to go, and the improvement when it was replaced was dramatic. I used the Besian products, and had the help of a skilled friend. It wasn't too difficult.
This is my favourite car in your staff fleet . . .
Doing the job yourself really isn't that bed. It took me a casual weekend to do the S85 in my M5 with the biggest pain being setting the gear lash on the VANOS pump. It was about $1200 all in (I think) for gaskets, oil, some new tools, King Bearings, and the BE/ARP bolts. Now, I should never have to change them again, but sadly, the VANOS line will still need to be changed in about 2030.
Doing the job yourself really isn't that bed. It took me a casual weekend to do the S85 in my M5 with the biggest pain being setting the gear lash on the VANOS pump. It was about $1200 all in (I think) for gaskets, oil, some new tools, King Bearings, and the BE/ARP bolts. Now, I should never have to change them again, but sadly, the VANOS line will still need to be changed in about 2030.
In reply to Slippery :
re: oil temp
I've tried to get a SOLID answer regarding oil Temps....for light loading (putting around, 20-40% throttle, <3000 RPM), medium (passing on highway, 50-70% throttle), and full load (track loading, full throttle, max rpm); obviously varies for stated viscosity, and crude vs synthetic formulae. What Temps correspond to "ready for" these loads?
any lubrication engineers out there?
coolant vs oil temp
well spoken. as I understand it from Jim Rowe at Metric Mechanic, coolant temp determines piston-to-cylinder-wall clearance; the overloaded hot piston will expand more than the cold block....clearances reduce....stuck, then collapsed piston.....if you hit high loads with low coolant temp. Jim has seen this on several engines run with no thermostat, i.e. too cold.
coolant temperature (with a thermostat) rises much faster than oil temp....unless you have a water to oil heat exchanger (vs oil to air cooler, or no oil cooler), as in my Ford 7.3 Diesel, or gen 1 MR2. with the latter, they both heat up at the same rate....coolant takes longer, oil is faster.
In reply to Colin Wood :
I've read a lot on this...the engineers have shown that idling >10 minutes in cold weather leaves measurable condensed water in the pan....not a crime unless your trip isn't long enough to evaporate the water.
in cold weather, 1-2 minutes in the driveway.
in warm weather, 30-60 seconds
then, as above, increase load as both liquids warm up.
I swear, starting with the s65/85 ALL BMW engines will need rod bearings every 100k
Docwemple said:I swear, starting with the s65/85 ALL BMW engines will need rod bearings every 100k
you forgot to start at S54/S62 ...
In reply to wspohn :
ditto
started off with Corvairs long ago...oil temp is crucial (air-cooled for you youngsters).
I've "needed" oil temp and oil pressure gauges ever since.
So as a non German car guy I find it wacky that one would need to do rod bearings outside of a rebuild.
I only mention this because I was raised on bikes and cars that tolerated abuse......so again I can't fathom doing rod bearings as maintenance.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Well, as a fan of German cars, I've never thought as 800 miles per quart as acceptable oil consumption, or a new transmission ever 25k, or an alternator as a regular replacement item, or... I can go on forever (of course my comment was regarding American cars)
In reply to Docwemple :
I'm also not an American car guy; I'm very much a Japanese car guy.......not that those are completely immune.
For road cars I find anything that needs to be cracked open before 200K a disappointment.
I like German cars a lot but the maintenance intervals keep me from owning one.
Tom1200 said:In reply to Docwemple :
I'm also not an American car guy; I'm very much a Japanese car guy.......not that those are completely immune.
For road cars I find anything that needs to be cracked open before 200K a disappointment.
I like German cars a lot but the maintenance intervals keep me from owning one.
S2000s suffer from rod bearing issues as well.
My take, which is probably incorrect, is that you cant compare it to a motorcycle as the rod will not see anywhere near the forces a car engine will. My R1 is rated at 155 hp and my BMW s1kRR 205 hp, but neither will produce over 85 lbs-ft of torque.
In reply to Slippery :
My reference to bikes was born out of the fact that when I started in the 70s two stroke Japanese bikes were a revelation in comparison to European makes.
As for the S2000s; I did say the Japanese weren't completely immune.
Attempting to get back on topic; are the BMW rod hearings an engine out job. If not, then it's probably not the issue it is in my mind.
One has to bear in mind that the S54 is a relatively long stroke engine and 7900 rpm is a rather high red line. If they had sold them with 6,000 rpm red line they could have eliminated the bearing issue and also done away with a lot of the fun. I got lucky - the first owner of my car was a lady who likely never even ran it to 6000 and the guy that I bought it from was the sort that babies his cars so I doubt that he ran it hard either.
Good review here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG6KTy85eTM
In reply to Tom1200 :
Not an engine out fix. I have done mine on jack stands in a day.
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