BMW Z3 M roadster vs. S2000

Joe Gearin wrote: carguy123--- I said I liked both cars. I also thought we were comparing the Z3- M Roadster and the S2000. I don't remember a Miata coming into the conversation, but this is the GRM board, so a Miata is bound to find it's way in somehow. Like I said.......whatever floats your boat.

It was the torqueless comment and coming from a driver that I presumed had driven a wide variety of cars. No one calls the Miata torqueless, but that's because the stock ones don't ever have the power rush of the S. Comments like that build erroneous impressions.

I'd heard so many of them that when I bought my car in '02 afterwards the salesman said that was the strangest test drive he'd ever been on. I lugged it and chugged it just to see if it was driveable on the streets.

The S has a street side and a track side. The 2 or totally different. It's almost like having 2 different cars.

I've driven the Z3 M and it's OK if you can get past the styling and the interior, but in stock form it just didn't excite me.

One thing I will give the Z3 is that you can go further with your upgrades than you can in the S. There's just not much more you'll get out the engine in the S.

yamaha wrote: In reply to M3Loco: I'm still envious of yours though.....but my KW's will fit on a z3M..... One day, I will buy a z3m coupe, I want white or evergreen though.

Thanks Man.. KW's will fit nice along with 275's in the rear.

Let me know if you need help checking one out.. I've learned alot..

R..

In reply to M3Loco:

<----can only fit 245/40 rubber in the back of the ti(and thats after pulling the fenders to clear that)....

BTW, I have 265/35s on the rear of my S.

And you are right, the wide tires look might nice.

No fender pulling required, but you do need to roll the little inside lip a little to keep it from hitting the tires under hard cornering.

My rims are Kinesis K58 - 18x7.5 front 53mm offset and 18x9.5 73mm offset.

I am running JIC FLT A2 15 way adjustable coil overs and the car is lowered an unknown amount, but is far, far from STANCE. It's lowered to a good track stance.

And if there was a way to upload pics to this site or it would let me link pics to Facebook then I'd show you what they look like.

I hate to have a bunch of perverts coming over on my FB page and ruining things, but here's the link so you can see the pic. https://www.facebook.com/david.bennett.100

carguy123 wrote: BTW, I have 265/35s on the rear of my S. And you are right, the wide tires look might nice. No fender pulling required, but you do need to roll the little inside lip a little to keep it from hitting the tires under hard cornering. My rims are Kinesis K58 - 18x7.5 front 53mm offset and 18x9.5 73mm offset. I am running JIC FLT A2 15 way adjustable coil overs and the car is lowered an unknown amount, but is far, far from STANCE. It's lowered to a good track stance. And if there was a way to upload pics to this site or it would let me link pics to Facebook then I'd show you what they look like. I hate to have a bunch of perverts coming over on my FB page and ruining things, but here's the link so you can see the pic. https://www.facebook.com/david.bennett.100

I post pics from my FB page all the time.. Just start the post and attach the pic by right-clicking on the pic and "Copy Address",, or something like that..

R..

It may depend on whether your Facebook pics are public or private or only shared with friends or whatever. It's not up to the forum to decide, it merely asks the FB server to pretty please send a picture.

And David, that's an excellent profile picture. Love the tie.

M3Loco wrote: I post pics from my FB page all the time.. Just start the post and attach the pic by right-clicking on the pic and "Copy Address",, or something like that.. R..

You gave me an idea. Maybe the issue is that the photo is being used as my header photo. Let me go into the album and see if it will let me post from there.

NOPE! So let me try it this way

NOPE AGAIN!

Keith Tanner wrote: And David, that's an excellent profile picture. Love the tie.

See, that's why I didn't want any preverts on my page.

I just found another place on FB that the picture is located. Maybe this will work.

Yahhhhh! Success!

So to put all the info in one place: Suspension = JIC FLT A2 15 way adjustable

My rims are Kinesis k58 - 18x7.5 front 53mm offset and 18x9.5 73mm offset rear

Front = BMW spec 235/40 X18 = 9.2” (82.8% of rear tire) 25.3” diameter

Rear = Porsche N2 spec 265/35 X18 = 11.1” (1.206 X front) 25.3” diameter

Stock front tire to rear ratios are:
205/55 X 16 = 7.1” (83.5% of rear tire) 25” diameter

225/50 X 16 = 8.5” (1.197 X the front) 24.8” diameter

That's how I buy tires. I don't look at rated sizes, I look at real sizes and try to keep the rear ratio just a little bit higher than stock to give me the handling I like.

Have you considered a Corvette? Seriously. I was looking at the S2000 and Z4M/Z3M and ended up with a C5 Z06.

honestly.. if presented with an S2000 and a Z3M.. I would have a very hard time choosing between the two. I would probably go for the M as most of the upgrades I have done to my Ti will swap over

carguy123 wrote: It was the torqueless comment and coming from a driver that I presumed had driven a wide variety of cars. No one calls the Miata torqueless, but that's because the stock ones don't ever have the power rush of the S. Comments like that build erroneous impressions.

I call the Miata torqueless. The engine is the worst part of a Miata to me followed closely by the exterior styling.

I was also not super impressed by the S2000 CR I had for a weekend. It did feel gutless around town but was nice when given the chance to open it up. Cool cruiser but not something I would want every day. Reminded my of my modified RX-7 with 5th & 6th ports removed. A PITA around town but tons of fun at an autocross or open road. Maybe thats why its getting an LS6 motor that will still spin 7k.

The M-Coupe is one of my favorite cars styling wise. I also thought it was a blast to drive (S54). Those are high compliments since I am far from a BMW fanboi. Just ask Gearin...

I had a stock 1993 RX7 for a while to go along with the Miata & S. The S was faster than the stock motor down low so I know it would have been even faster than your modified RX7.

But I've got nothing against an RX7 with an LS6.

Do I get a ride?

I can understand the "gutless down low" argument. While the S52 and S2000 engine are close in peak power, at 3000rpm the S52 has like 50hp more available.

Doesn't bother me that much. My S2000 is a blast to drive on the street or autocrossing. My complaints about it have nothing to do with the engine.

mad_machine wrote: honestly.. if presented with an S2000 and a Z3M.. I would have a very hard time choosing between the two. I would probably go for the M as most of the upgrades I have done to my Ti will swap over

This.....if I ever ball up my ti.....I just hope the na's are spared for precisely this reason.

In reply to carguy123:

If I ever get it finished I should bring it to the Challenge and give rides.

The 13B in the RX-7 put out 160rwhp on a DynaPak and ran 14's at right around 100mph so power and speed was in line with stockish S2000s. It was fun but weak below 4000rpm. The 6puck clutch and 9lb flywheel didn't help street manners either. I think peak power was 7200 but it was just a few off until over 8000. Honestly the stock motor with the 5th & 6th ports hooked up and a full exhaust was much nicer combo. Even the 6 port 13b (open aux ports) with stock flywheel and clutch in my RX-3 isn't too bad.

Don't get me wrong I like the S2000 it just felt like my RX-7 around town. Slow unless you were really on it then quick but almost too attention getting quick.

Greg Voth wrote: Don't get me wrong I like the S2000 it just felt like my RX-7 around town. Slow unless you were really on it then quick but almost too attention getting quick.

And that's why the BRZ will be so much fun. Hopefully it will fly under the cop radar and you don't have to go so bloomin' fast to be having a ball.

There's a reason you hear the old adage of "I'd rather drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow!"

s2000 b/c it won't Break My Wallet

I drove an S2K a lot, and never had a problem with power, but admittedly it was the 2.2 version so it's a little torquier. By far my biggest complaint about the S2K was visibility. Lane changes are scary with the top up, and the fixed steering wheel blocks the instruments if you're between about 5'7 and 6'3. I'm 5'10" and can't see the top half of the tach, which is really annoying in a high-revving car.

For me, the sweet spot is '04-'05. Better interior (helmet-friendly seats) and wheels than the '06-up, extra torque, cable throttle instead of the later mechanical one, and I prefer the chassis setup. A lot of people like the AP1 (pre-04) because it's oversteery and more agile, but I find the AP2's handling to be a lot more accessible, and I can drive one a lot faster than I can an AP1 because I don't have to fight with the car.

FWIW, I'd be fine with a C5 Corvette, but there is no way on God's earth I could ever got one into my driveway - sharp breakover at the end of a 7-mile long dirt road - so my list of possible cars has to take this into account. My slightly lowered '89 MR2 has no problems, but a C5 would have no chance. If you could see where I live, you'd agree it's worth the drive.

There are actually about 7 or 8 cars on my list, no need to go into them all at this time. I really like the MR2, have had it almost 13 years, it just needs 100 more HP and better brakes - and I'm 66, so my next sports car may be my last (when I find a car I really like, I keep it - all my vehicles are well over 100,000 miles), so it had beter be one I really, really like, and I'm in no great hurry to find it. When the right one shows up, I'll jump. But that also means I need to seriously look when a car or two on my list becomes available. Living where I do, non-trucks are rare, so going for a test drive often requires driving 300 miles or more.

Max_Archer wrote: By far my biggest complaint about the S2K was visibility. Lane changes are scary with the top up, and the fixed steering wheel blocks the instruments if you're between about 5'7 and 6'3. I'm 5'10" and can't see the top half of the tach, which is really annoying in a high-revving car.

Visibility? It had fewer blind spots than my 99 Miata. I've never felt I had any insurmountable blind spots. At 3/4 rear there's a spot, but it's completely covered by your rearview mirror. Now in my F150 there are spots that I can't tell a car is there. I almost ran over a Miata the other day because he didn't show in my rear view mirror AND I couldn't see him visually out of any of the windows. He was lower than all of them. If my wife hadn't been a passenger I'd have never known he was there till the crunch.

I'm 6' even and the steering wheel doesn't cover up anything in the dash, I frames everything just right so I'm guess you are longer or shorter waisted than me.

I drive with a helmet in my car all the time.

and BTW you aren't "fightin' with the car, you're having fun with the car!"

I am also 6' tall and don't have any problems seeing the cluster.

There are some annoying blind spots, but no more than any other convertible. I've actually driven coupes/sedans with much worse blind spots than the S2K.

My gripes with the S2000 are pretty much purely the highway gearing and driver ingress/egress.

ProDarwin wrote: My gripes with the S2000 are pretty much purely the highway gearing and driver ingress/egress.

The Miata door begins a few inches closer to the front of the car than the Miata and when my back is aching I can get in & out of the Miata and can't in the S.

That really surprised me since the S door is longer.

I dunno, it might just be how I'm sitting in the car. I've got pretty average arm and leg length, and I sit with the seat upright and my arm distance set up so that my wrists rest on top of the wheel without stretching my shoulders, just like they teach you at racing school or wherever. I have similar problems in a lot of cars, like my Mazda2, so I think that a lot of people are either driving with their knees in their chests or reaching too far to the steering wheel.

carguy123 wrote:

ProDarwin wrote: My gripes with the S2000 are pretty much purely the highway gearing and driver ingress/egress.

The Miata door begins a few inches closer to the front of the car than the Miata and when my back is aching I can get in & out of the Miata and can't in the S. That really surprised me since the S door is longer.

Yeah, I can't pinpoint the exact issue. I always describe it as like getting into a kayak... sideways.

I'm 28, in very good shape, 6', 175lbs and don't have any aches/pains/injuries. Somehow, the S2000 is a royal pain to get in and out of. Never bothered me in my Miata, or even my lowered Saturns (which admittedly are pretty easy to get in and out of) that my passengers would complain about all the time.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a pain, that is unless your back's already hurting, but I sat them side by side and did some measuring. IIRC the Miata's door starts 2" further forward than the S.

That means your foot wants to hit the leading edge on the S.

But the S is so much more comfortable than the Miata in every other way. It's as if they took a Miata and set it on the design floor and said "OK, guys find everything wrong with the Miata and let's fix it."

That even goes for the interior lighting and sun visors.

Speaking of Sun Visors does anyone have an extra set to fit a 91 Miata? A 60+ year old lady I know, she's an old lady in every sense of the word, just bought her a 91 Miata with a high wing, Koenig rims and a loud exhaust. She said she's always wanted one so this one was sitting by the road so she stopped and bought it.

It was obviously a very young guy's car. It's not in great shape, but she says she must have sun visors.

She hasn't been to the junk yard yet, but I thought maybe someone on here had a set they'd like to get rid of.