Brake plumbing from *scratch* advice?

1992? VW Corrado race car. That should set the tone.

Has wilwood dual brake mc and clutch mc with npt outlets. Stock type brakes with double bubble stainless stock replacement hose ends.

What is best to do between thats minimal hassle and easy to install/repair? Minimum fittings/bs.

1/8"npt to -3an? to ? Profit? To stock vw caliper flex lines?

Dont need a prop valve (with the balance bar on the mc) but will have a staging brake inline w the rear.

Thoughts?

er...build. I'm doing the same thing soon, but with Howe Dual Masters and stock Miata calipers.

I am planning to buy/borrow a flairing tool and use steel lines with flare/fittings to fit the master on one end and braided stainless Miata flex lines on the other. I've also heard good things about this stuff: http://www.fedhillusa.com/

You should be able to get adapters to go straight from wilwood things to whatever your stock stuff is.

What i would do, adapt immediately from the wilwood stuff to stock, run everything else from there to your flex lines stock.

(-3AN might be the same diameter tubing, so that idea has merit, especially if it means you get cheaper and more readily available adapters from NPT on that end.)

I've got some good, easy to work with, tubing- makes great flares of whatever type you are using.

Assuming that the adapting doesn't work.

I've done this a few times. I'm with swanky, use factory connections wherever possible. Minimize adapters, it's not that hard to change the flare on a hard line.

From the master:
- NPT to VW double bubble flare. No idea if this is available, you may have to reflare the end of the line to an SAE inverted flare. The masters will probably come with NPT-to-SAE adapters.
- hard lines to wheels
- either stock VW rubber lines or Corrado-specific SS replacement lines. Alternately, some easily obtained factory alternative.

If you're running your own hard lines, then you can choose what flares to have on the ends. You can buy pre-flared lines at your local auto parts store in various lengths.

The only people who use AN fittings are racers, which makes sourcing replacement bits a PITA unless you order them from a race shop. If you're on the road and you need something, you'll have much better luck finding them if you're using production car stuff.

To clarify, track only car and no stock plumbing present other than the ss flex lines on the calipers.

You're still going to need hard lines. You can either buy the pre-flared stuff at your local auto parts store and bend it to suit (this gives a very clean install with excellent flare quality) or you can buy bulk line and flare it yourself. The only time the latter is a preferred option IMO is when you have to do a long run to the back of the car.

Since you don't have any stock parts other than the calipers, you could go to an SAE flare instead of the VW ones. It'll be easier to get parts and easier to do flares. That pooches you on the stock flex lines you have now, but if you can find an easily sourced alternative with SAE flares (should be easy enough if there are banjo fittings on the caliper) then go with that.

Even if it's a race car, I'd stay away from AN stuff. It's just a pain to source.

I just plumbed a whole new dual MC system on a race car w/ new Goodridge AN3 hose and olives, reusing the Goodridge fittings. I made a clamping block and cutting guide and bought an Aeroquip sheath spreading tool and had a vise next to the car. This eased the process immensely, and the whole process took an afternoon. Every line fits and routes perfectly and the whole deal wasn't terribly expensive. AN stuff is available from many suppliers and I'll assume that if it's a race car you're stocking spares for anything you might need to salvage a weekend if you're away from home; some extra line and olives and a few fittings and you can replace any corner pretty easily.

Stuff:

Cut:

Trim sheath:

Trimmed:

Cut hose at old fitting:

Old fitting w/ hose and olive driven out, new olive:

Put ferrule on, spread sheath, push olive on, lubricate, assemble.

Finished:

I see the pluses and minuses of the an stuff. Gotta stew on that.

Need to check for m10 banjo to sae flare. If I can find those I can ditch the vw hose ends and that would make things slightly easier.

If you're going to run your own hard lines get Nicopp tubing.

AN-3 all the way. It's more expensive but it's worth it when you need to update/disassemble/etc going forward.

Rigid tools makes an affordable 37 degree flaring tool (~$100) and Speedway has a kit that comes with hard line, SS hoses and fittings to get you 90% of the way along and carries most of the additional fittings you will need to add things like a Wilwood bias valve or independent masters. Don't bother with stainless. It's harder to flare properly and more expensive. Regular steel line is just fine.

I'd recommend an extra bag of tube nuts and collars for mistakes at the minimum. You will drop atleast one into a black hole of time and space. A good sharp tube cutter is also a must.

I run hard lines everywhere except use SS hose from the MCs and calipers to make swapping the parts that need rebuilding easy to work with.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mild-Steel-3-AN-Brake-Line-Kit,9142.html

This one?

I already have the 37deg tool that I used for my fuel line. Need to see if it can go that small, but if so, seems like a win.

Got the ni-co line but still need tubes and nuts. Aluminum workable or go steel?

Last couple cars I did I used the plastic coated steel lines. I like them better for durability than the nicopper stuff. The nicopoer is a dream to work with but I have been a bit leery of it when things go wrong. It is so soft and flexible that to me it just seems like it would damage easy.

I've plumbed cars both ways. I'll go AN everywhere, everytime.

Why:

1. If you get good (stainless) hardline and a GOOD (not Harbor Freight) flaring tool, AN ends up the same price.

2. AN doesn't leak or weep.

3. Unless you use a GOOD flaring tool, the hardline approach will leak or weep.

4. Plumbing with AN is much easier and more flexible.

5. As far as spares go, I guess I don't understand. If a caliper fails at the track, go get another at NAPA, come back to the track, transfer the AN adaptor from the old caliper to the new one and you're ready to go, no spares needed.

Use steel or SS hose ends. Aluminum is for low pressure stuff!

Read this, so much good info here:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Plumbing/

Steel, duh.

Great link!

Still need to find good M10 brake to -3an fittings the ones I have don't seem to bottom out and seal.

kb58 wrote: I've plumbed cars both ways. I'll go AN everywhere, everytime. Why: 1. If you get good (stainless) hardline and a GOOD (not Harbor Freight) flaring tool, AN ends up the same price. 2. AN doesn't leak or weep. 3. Unless you use a GOOD flaring tool, the hardline approach *will* leak or weep. 4. Plumbing with AN is much easier and more flexible. 5. As far as spares go, I guess I don't understand. If a caliper fails at the track, go get another at NAPA, come back to the track, transfer the AN adaptor from the old caliper to the new one and you're ready to go, no spares needed.

2 and 3 are true for any well-executed brake setup, of course. SAE, metric or AN.

A good AN flaring tool might cost the same as a good SAE/metric flaring tool, but of course you can only use it on AN flares. Which is great if you only have a race car I can use (and have used) my flaring tool on my nearly 50-year-old Land Rover, my MG, my Mini, my Cadillac, my Miatas, my Vanagon and I could use it on most of the other cars in the fleet as well.

As for the hassles of sourcing, everything AN has to come mail order for me. I have to adapt from one system to another, then make sure I get the parts order right, then adapt back to a different system. If I keep it all one system, it's easy. And it's easiest if that standard is one that's used in the automotive industry instead of one that's only used in the aftermarket industry. Once it's built, sure, you're probably okay. As long as you don't have to change anything.

For me this is a one and done. It's a drag car so it only barely needs brakes, they need to pass tech so no plastic line, needs to work on all wheels, etc. Rears will be biased out and on a staging brake. Needs all four corners to be functional. Stupid rules, but I am going to be just barely slow enough to miss the chute requirement.