Buying Performance Versus Building Performance

Knurled. said:

dean1484 said:

He paid half retail for a car with only 9k miles on it.  Got to love the depreciation of German cars. 

Indeed.

 

I'm only fixating on the RS3 because it's the only one with a five cylinder, and that is rather important to me.

 

Heck, I'm in the middle of an Audi-based five cylinder build, and if I wait a couple years, I can pick up an RS3 for less than it would take to finish the car to my satisfaction.  And it would still have less power, less refinement, less livability, much worse handling, and maintenance/repair is a matter of making things instead of ringing up Worldpac.  (And I can get a used car loan for 1% interest, versus %usurious for credit cards!)

 

This is a lot of why I've stepped down my goals significantly... it's cheaper to buy than build.

I want to know where I can find a $33k RS3 with 9k miles on it. I will make an irresponsible decision this afternoon. A quick online search shows the only ones under $50k have 30k miles on them (so lease trade-ins I'm assuming).

After having a track rat Miata, an S52 swapped E30 (and that was 10 years ago even)........even at only 37, I don't enjoy spending my nights and weekends in the garage on this stuff as much as I used to. 

Knurled. said:

I've a friend who I spent several hours talking with the other weekend.  He was in the boat where he had a project car that he had been working on for most of his adult life, and he started it when he was in his 20s and could tolerate things like rod-end all the things, and kart-like suspension travel, and zero interior... which are interesting and exciting in one's 20s.  But in one's 40s, that just ain't fun anymore, and when you have other priorities like having a family that you want to go on road trips with, it turns from a fun project with an awesome goal, into a task that you have to complete because that's just what you've been doing with your life, and when it is over you will end up with a statue, not something to enjoy driving.

 

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that is the very brief version, and another word for "age and wisdom" is "maturity", and I guess part of that is accepting personal change, and moving on does not mean accepting defeat, it just means moving on.

This is an interesting discussion.

As for Knurled's friend - there's another path. Shift the target for the project car. Tune the suspension for ride height and compliance. Build in some civility. Put some interior back in. As noted, all cars are a compromise and as time goes on, the compromises we're willing to accept change. 

I'm looking at doing that with one of my cars. The Targa Miata has been a work in progress since 2006 or so. In that time, it's shifted roles multiple times because of what I want to do with it. And the latest plan involves civilization. Not enough to truly tame it, but enough to make it a legitimate option for the drive to work. Carpet, a bit more sound deadening, AC, removal of the front half of the cage, street car seats. I'll keep the drivetrain and the livery, but we're going from Targa Miata Corsa to Targa Miata Stradale. 

If your goal is simply pure quantified performance, the factories do a great job. My eyes were opened at the Car and Driver Superfour Challenge back in 2003 when Larry Webster rolled up to the line in a new Z06 and demolished the field of modified four cylinders that were in attendance. The factory cars have got better and better in the time since. The tuning industry has also improved, but not by as much.

But that doesn't mean we should all be driving factory cars. We can build stuff that the factory can't. Want a car with that Z06 engine, but that's 1000 lbs lighter? You can build that. Want an ND Miata with the compact dimensions, light weight and modern appointments - but with 30% more power? Mazda won't do it, but you can. Want the style of an older car but with the abilities of a newer one? You're going to have to put that together yourself. I could sell the Targa Miata and buy something like a Mustang, but it would be missing that completely berzerk edge of a big, high compression engine in a very light car.

And yes, I've done 1000+ mile road trips in V8 Miatas and in turbo Miatas in comfort and without a problem :) The trick is being willing to do the extra work to make it really work, not just function.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You got mail.

A good example of livable "built not bought" cars are Pro Touring cars, because the whole premise for them is long road trips.  All the same, the refinement of them is less than OE.  Even the really good stuff like Detroit Speed subframes that put Corvette suspension under a Camaro, are hamstrung by the use of bushings that have no longevity or decent NVH compliance.

I think a big thing to look at in the build vs buy equation is whether or not the factory even makes what you want.

For example, I am looking hard at a Z32 300ZX for my next project. I had a non-turbo and loved the car but hated the engine and how difficult it was to service. The factory option is to buy a twin-turbo model, which is a much faster car but makes the service difficulty an order of magnitude worse. Since I love the body and chassis but hate both engine options, I want to put one together myself that has a simpler SR20 engine. If Nissan had made one, I wouldn't go through the trouble, but they didn't, so...

On the flip side, I think it's senseless to do something like start with a V6 Mustang and convert it to a V8 and so-on. Unless you REALLY want to have all that blood and sweat invested in the final product for some reason, or happen to have a ton of time and all the stuff just laying around, it doesn't make sense.

Broadly speaking, the older I get, the more the old "time is money" cliche really adds up. After a E36 M3ty week of work, I really don't want to spend my two "free" days thrashing on something in the garage unless there is really some value involved in me doing so. I think my Euro E28 is the last car I will ever have bought in "fixer upper" status instead of just buying a nice one. The end result was worth it but I have zero motivation to go through that kind of project again. Hell, I waver on the Z32 idea. I love the damn cars but I'd love to just buy something and not go through all that...

But even with that less-than-modern refinement, they're going to give a different experience. The vintage road trip but with the ability to bounce your head off the headrest, with a level of style. And if you're not after the experience, just get a Camry or Tesla. But you can't buy anything like it.

Is it possible to change out those bushings for something else, for example? Using OE bushings for NVH was actually one of the big targets for our ND V8 project.

Got your email. Your buddy dreams big.

I just purchased performance. Best thing ever.  I have a monster of a car that is equally as happy loping along in complete silence with my wife and kids. But put it in sport mode and select track and manual (activating the flappy paddles) and it turns in to a beast that will take the corners as well as being a rocket. It even has dynamic seat bolsters that inflate and deflate based on steering, throttle  and Gs as well as dynamic seat belts that adjust to keep you in you seat better. 

I just can’t build something like this. I can’t shift as fast as this thing can.  

Having had almost all build over my last 20 years, I have a hard time with the buy personally. I know I should just go and buy something but I also know I will nitpick at it for the little things I don't like and put more money into it. 

In reality, what I want just isn't made. Something under 180ish inches under 3500 lbs with a turbo V6 and magnaride suspension and not a 911. Living at 7k ft. Sucks the life out of a NA motor. It's just not as fun. 

To me age and wisdom sounds a lot like

"I've gotten old, lazier and now have money"

Which is completely fine, older bones don't handle the rattling as well as younger ones do.

I still enjoy wrenching but it has to be something new, not just take off X and put Y in there instead. If it's not interesting or new to me I don't want to do it. The joy of everything auto related being new and exciting has died off in the past few years. If mechanics weren't such a rip off I'd probably pay them to do some of my work too.

Keith Tanner said:

But even with that less-than-modern refinement, they're going to give a different experience. The vintage road trip but with the ability to bounce your head off the headrest, with a level of style. And if you're not after the experience, just get a Camry or Tesla. But you can't buy anything like it.

Is it possible to change out those bushings for something else, for example? Using OE bushings for NVH was actually one of the big targets for our ND V8 project.

Part of the problem is economy of scale.  The OEs can contract out to Alcoa or TRW or someone and have 10,000 aluminum control arms made up with bushings engineered to a spec by their office full of engineers who do nothing but engineer suspension.  Even a "large" performance company is not going to have the kind of volume to allow that kind of economy of scale, so they will go with welded up tube and off the shelf poly bushings, because that gets the job done.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here,  And yes, it WOULD be nice to see a compromise, like proper rubber bushings with compliance voids in adjustable length arms, for example.  I made my own for the RX-7 out of OE links and threaded tube.  I would have LOVED to make some for a certain customer of mine with a 4th gen F-body, which another speed shop installed rod end suspension links because harsh = fast, but the original parts were long gone, and new arms to start fabbing with are not available from GM.  Had to compromise with poly bushinged arms, which were "better" but still unpleasant.

And nobody makes a 4L80-compatible torque arm that doesn't use rod ends or a big fat poly bushing that is being asked to gyrate in ways which hard plastic doesn't want to.  It looked ugly but the solution GM had for a torque arm pivot bushing worked really, really well.  And they mounted it to the trans so any residual drivetrain NVH got lost in the engine/trans mounts.  Kind of like the drivetrain frame that they used for the last few years of the C3, that Mazda made famous as the "power plant frame".

In the end, he had a 700hp monster of a Camaro that vibrated and ran hot all the time, and was generally unpleasant to drive, and a year later the ZL1 was announced, which provided about the same performance for about the same money and lots lots LOTS more refinement.

dean1484 said:

I just purchased performance. Best thing ever.  I have a monster of a car that is equally as happy loping along in complete silence with my wife and kids. But put it in sport mode and select track and manual (activating the flappy paddles) and it turns in to a beast that will take the corners as well as being a rocket. It even has dynamic seat bolsters that inflate and deflate based on steering, throttle  and Gs as well as dynamic seat belts that adjust to keep you in you seat better. 

I just can’t build something like this. I can’t shift as fast as this thing can.  

Living in the future is awesome sometimes.

In reply to bmw88rider :

Just give into the 911.  What I have in my garage is what you should have in yours.

Gut reaction: ya'll got old and lazy

Truth: Me too

I am to the point where I don't even own a "fun" car I can drive around. Daily driver is almost 5 years old and I put gas in it and pay someone else to make sure there is oil. I have an old truck that I keep up with the maintenance so I can tow my trailer and purpose built fun-on-the-weekends-only-at-the-track-car. It's working for me and I'm at a point in my life that I won't sacrifice anything to make my daily drama a hair higher. The project being race only makes me able to put it away and not think about it when I need to, and drag it out when I want. So far this is the best compromise I have done so far... though I occasionally pine for something to drive to work on a nice Friday...

To me age and wisdom sounds a lot like

"I've gotten old, lazier and now have money"

Which is completely fine, older bones don't handle the rattling as well as younger ones do.

I feel old enough to say that in my opinion that's exactly right.  And it's fine, mostly.  I think the pitfalls come when you forget what it was like to be young/broke/invincible whatever and we start treating each other nasty. 

I know i spent my whole youth not knowing what it was like to be older and it made me an ass about a lot of things (im still an ass but now i know!). At least as an older adult you have the chance of knowing both sides.  

In reply to Vigo :

I dont rattle that much so I wont comment, my pain comes from running not age. (Job requirement, unfortunately) 

While I take none of it personally, many of the comments in this thread look/seem snobbish at mostly their younger selves. Which is hilarious, because I'll probably do the exact same thing in 20 years.

Tastes change as time goes on and if you're on a budget and only want something that does X and not X, Y and Z with comfort and AC and it needs to Tow, go mudding, set record lap times and make a fun boat, fly etc. building is probably the best way to go.

I spent the last few years daily driving a boring car for most of the time. Getting back into a daily that can put a smile on my face at any time is the best thing ever. Bumpy ride, toxic fumes be damned. I'll live with that over a comfortable car with leather seats and properly working AC any day.

Father has the big dumb as me in the same type of fashion, though his older bones have softer suspension. Which is fine, we all get old and fragile one day

Knurled. said:

dean1484 said:

I just purchased performance. Best thing ever.  I have a monster of a car that is equally as happy loping along in complete silence with my wife and kids. But put it in sport mode and select track and manual (activating the flappy paddles) and it turns in to a beast that will take the corners as well as being a rocket. It even has dynamic seat bolsters that inflate and deflate based on steering, throttle  and Gs as well as dynamic seat belts that adjust to keep you in you seat better. 

I just can’t build something like this. I can’t shift as fast as this thing can.  

Living in the future is awesome sometimes.

It is a 7 year old car.  The future is exciting but it is getting to the point where the average person is not qualified to drive what the mfgr's can build.  That may be a whole different thread/discussion all its own. 

In reply to dean1484 :

If you turn of all the electric nannies, it's well past that point...And even with the nannies, I'd say it's already debatable.

The older me is both laughing at the younger me and saying "what were you thinking".  Man was I dumb with some of my car related decisions in my youth. But I would not trade any of them as it made me appreciate where I am now and having the choice to wrench and build versus having me DD also be my project.  Ya that made for some really late nights.  It has really made me appreciate what I can buy and the engineering that it takes for a manufacturer to make some of these cars.  Even "normal" cars are engineering marvels.  Some we marvel at the fact that they actually built it white the engineering of them is suspect at best.     

I must not be old or wise yet. I'd much rather drive my old station wagon then anything new. My father on the other hand seems to agree with most of you but he's 64. 

I think the posts that suggest that the older we get, the more the areas we're willing to compromise on stuff might be onto something. For example, I don't need a car with a ride so harsh my false teeth are in danger of falling out, at least not outside the racetrack. So for those of us who still enjoy tinkering (I can't really call what I do "building"), the cars we end up with may just get closer to what the factory is willing to do for us these days.

Speaking for myself, I'm also less inclined to bolt cheap crap to my car compared to what I was younger. And unfortunately a lot of the aftermarket has gone cheap, and the few remaining manufacturers of quality parts ended up raising their prices. And a lot of people think "why would I pay the high prices for stuff overnighted from Japan, Germany, Italy or wherever when I can just buy cheap knockoff E36 M3 on, err, certain websites", so prices for the really good stuff tend to stay high.

Case in point - I could stuff some Raceland coilovers under my S2k for wicked low stance or whatever the kids call it these days, or I can spend a lot more and actually improve the car a bit with a set of Öhlins. I know where I'm likely to end up at some point, and it ain't Raceland.

There's also the bit about cars being so good that it doesn't take as much as it used to to sharpen them up a bit, especially if you don't want a grumpy temperamental race monster for the street.

dean1484 said:

Knurled. said:

dean1484 said:

I just purchased performance. Best thing ever.  I have a monster of a car that is equally as happy loping along in complete silence with my wife and kids. But put it in sport mode and select track and manual (activating the flappy paddles) and it turns in to a beast that will take the corners as well as being a rocket. It even has dynamic seat bolsters that inflate and deflate based on steering, throttle  and Gs as well as dynamic seat belts that adjust to keep you in you seat better. 

I just can’t build something like this. I can’t shift as fast as this thing can.  

Living in the future is awesome sometimes.

It is a 7 year old car.  The future is exciting but it is getting to the point where the average person is not qualified to drive what the mfgr's can build.  That may be a whole different thread/discussion all its own. 

Well, this time fifty years ago, Detroit was putting out cars with "425" horsepower (nudge nudge wink wink) and six inch wide bias-ply tires, Germany was putting out cars that could technically maintain highway speed but you really didn't want to do that in any kind of crosswind.  And Porsche just lengthened the wheelbase of the 911 to make it less oversteery, which makes one wonder what the original SWB cars were like.  They countered that in six years by sticking a really laggy turbo on it, so you had a choice of corner entry oversteer, heavy understeer, snap power oversteer, or lift-throttle oversteer...

Japan gave us... um... the 240Z, and the Corolla.

I build because I can't afford to buy. Even if that means buying a rat race rod over building one, would much rather buy and tinker than build from scratch. Also build partially because I know there is not a single mechanic I have met to date I trust to so much as change oil in anything I care even slightly about. Heck, if I had a tire changing machine not a single car of mine would visit a shop.

If I could justify the money for a ZL1, gt4, gt3, e30 m3 S54, etc, I would do it in a heartbeat and toss the LS swap e36 racecrap mobile in a dumpster. Sadly I cant, and even if I could purchase I wouldn't be able to afford the brake/tire/insurance costs on top to HPDE.....

Interesting thread.  

But for my whole life, all of my cars were there to meet the requirement that they were used for.

First car was a stock Alfetta GT (as we bought it stock), and being a DD that took me to school- it was more important to keep it running.  Wasn't fully successful...

Which lead to car 2, Honda CRX HF.  Pretty much the same thing, but I put some nice tires on it for the summer, and a handful of autocrosses.

While having that car- I got my '73 GTV- which was for autocrossing and track days.  And it turned into a nice version of that, with a very stock interior.  But it never went to the hairy edge of the rules, as I just didn't want to.  Having driven a modified Miata (which was clearly faster) and a more modified than mine Spider- so much of the feel and interaction wasn't there.  So the car hit a point and stopped.

Then the DD turned into a Miata.  Two actually- neither had any modifications on them, as I didn't see the point in making any signficant changes.  More power would be pointless, better handling useless.  After 20 years of ownership, it's restoration will be more stock than not, as it just drives so very nicely that way.  No real drama going around corners, no abusive suspension, and no droning loud exhaust.

I did get another Alfa that was going to be a real race car.  It would have been interesting to really get into it, as it felt that it had a TON of potential speed, but I got tired of racing, and dropped out.

And now that I'm no longer racing, I know the stock handing of the GTV is more than enough to be fun and entertaining in the real world- so it will keep the warmed over motor from her race days- but that's it.

Priorities change for all of us, as does financial ability.  There's no wrong way of doing it.  As long as you love your cars, you are doing it right.

I think newer cars are just so much better out of the box, with less compromises. When I got into cars in the 90’s, you pretty much had to modify them. Even sporty cars were softly sprung, under damped, and under braked. Many were also very detuned, with overly restrictive intakes and exhausts. My first performance car was a ‘90 Eagle Talon. Stock, it was quick for the day, but had a lot of room for improvement. It had a soft suspension with a 4x4 ride height. They came on all season tires. The exhaust was tiny for even the stock power levels. They left the factory set at only 10lbs of boost, on an engine running only 7.8/1 compression. Simple changes netting huge power gains. I knocked 2 full seconds off my 1/4 mile times with mostly factory Mitsubishi parts, and the car still ran and drove like stock. For years, it was quicker than just about anything that rolled out of a factory aside from high dollar super cars. But the times have caught up, and lots of cars are as quick now. Much nicer, newer cars with lots more amenities and lots more safety. To make the same car faster, I would have to take it past the point of it running and driving like a factory car, and start introducing more compromises. 

I’ve kicked around the idea of selling off my older fun cars (‘92 Mitsubishi Galant VR4, ‘95 Miata M, 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon) and buying one newer fun car to simplify my life. I have very little car time with three kids, work, and a lot of house projects. I can’t even drive then very often, as I have a company car for my daily driver. But they are all paid for, and at the bottom of their depreciation curves. Plus I like them, and I  enjoy modifying them to my liking. I think I’d regret it.

In reply to docwyte :

What's funny is I watched a Golf R but none were available near me and they were not taking any new orders. So I bought a S3. 

Glad I did. I've had more fun with this car than anything i've owned in a while. I used to be a VAG hater.