Can Challenge cones cost 1 second instead of 2?

I've been to SCCA events that penalized 1 second per cone, and others that penalized 2 seconds.

This year's Challenge event penalized 2 seconds. I may be wrong, but I think it has varied in some years.

I know the staff is considering several things much more important than this, but I'd like to throw this in the suggestion box for consideration as well.

Here's my case...

Since the Challenge is a multi task event, some cars excel at autocross, some at drags, some at Concours. A one second penalty is a sufficient penalty to be meaningful, but not kick them out of the running entirely. A car that pulled off a miracle run could still be competitive with a lot of the field with a 1 second penalty, or a drag car that was hard to handle might still have a chance without a clean run. A 2 second penalty means the run is a throw away (which also contributes to the grid staging issues).

The drivers at this event are almost entirely amateurs, or pros driving ridiculously unmanageable machines. Clean runs are sometimes tough.

Plus, it's not a driver's event, it's a builder's event, right?

I'll go along with the decision, but I'd like a little clarification (and personally vote for 1 second)

Thanks!

I go to the Challenge to compete in the autox and look at cool builds. Drags and concours have little meaning to me. I've done a lot of autocrossing and never been to one that had 1 second penalties for a cone, 2 is certainly the norm. I vote 2 seconds. You could intentionally punt one of the slalom cones and make up more than a 1 second penalty.

Lof8 wrote: You could intentionally punt one of the slalom cones and make up more than a 1 second penalty.

Or all of the slalom cones and make up a 5 second penalty.

I vote for 2 seconds to stay the rule.

It should stay a +2 second penalty. Otherwise you create the possibility of gaming the course and intentionally taking a +1 second cone penalty but ending up ahead.

A +1 second penalty would then bias the vehicles that were built for drag and concourse. The spirit of the Challenge is to excel at all three disciplines. ALL official SCCA events require a +2 second penalty, so the the Challenge should stick to that.

Challengers gaming the rules! I never!

I've been to exactly one autocross that used 1 second penalties for cones, an Alfa Club event that was more like a gymkhana than an autocross. I was in the P71, and I purposefully rammed the 3-cone slalom at full speed. TTOD.

Take that FWIW.

Lof8 wrote: I go to the Challenge to compete in the autox and look at cool builds. Drags and concours have little meaning to me. I've done a lot of autocrossing and never been to one that had 1 second penalties for a cone, 2 is certainly the norm. I vote 2 seconds. You could intentionally punt one of the slalom cones and make up more than a 1 second penalty.

I agree, 2 seconds is the norm. However, as noted, I've seen 1 second.

May I suggest that if the only thing you are interested in is autox, there are many other venues...

The Challenge will never be a place where driver's are well matched with their vehicles. Most experienced autocrossers could bring a car they are familiar with to the Challenge and post clean times better than the competitors or pros. 1 second penalty would address this.

And yes, that would add the possibility that a driver could choose to punt on a cone. I hope he misses the rest. But that would just be one more choice in a game of compromises, which is what the Challenge is.

... and the Challenge is most certainly not the place where cars excel at the discipline of drag racing. Many couldn't pass tech, most couldn't launch or cut a light.

The Challenge is not about excelling at 3 disciplines. The Challenge is about choosing which compromises to make, and doing the best you can.

I was once at a Car and Driver event that was multi-disciplinary, including a run to 140 mph right after a chicane. I pointed out that completely demolishing one particular cone in the chicane would get you a massive advantage. A factory driver agreed with me. C+D said "you'd damage your car!" We said "totally worth it".

They changed the rules.

I'm usually on the other coast during the Challenge, so I have no dog in this fight. But I would personally rather see the cars built with an emphasis on autox instead of drag, so 2s seems reasonable to me - as well as normal.

Go with one second, just make sure there are a LOT of cones.

I can understand going to one second given the drag events weight in the overall scheme Go to one second and simply use 3 cones set in a row or a triangle close together in slalom to prevent somebody blasting straight through the last gate in a slalom to get an advantage. Bam...3 second penalty for that behavior. Make sense?

I've never been to an autocross where a cone was not 2 seconds. And I did that for almost 20 years.

The only "oddity" I've noted- our local clubs call an off course a 5 second penalty vs. a DNF. So that way everyone gets a score. Other than that- 2 seconds.

SVreX wrote:

Lof8 wrote: I go to the Challenge to compete in the autox and look at cool builds. Drags and concours have little meaning to me. I've done a lot of autocrossing and never been to one that had 1 second penalties for a cone, 2 is certainly the norm. I vote 2 seconds. You could intentionally punt one of the slalom cones and make up more than a 1 second penalty.

May I suggest that if the only thing you are interested in is autox, there are many other venues...

Lol. Thanks for your suggestion. I think you missed where I said I also like checking out the cool builds.

I hear what you're saying but, yeah, in 25 years of autocrossing I have never seen a cone worth just 1 second. I could have sworn that way, way back in the day Martin counted each cone as 3.

+2

This is GRM, lets math this E36 M3. Paul, crunch the numbers and see exactly how it would change the autoX and overall scores for the past couple years..

3 seconds!

bluej wrote: This is GRM, lets math this E36 M3. Paul, crunch the numbers and see exactly how it would change the autoX and overall scores for the past couple years..

I cant. Scoresheets don't record the cones, just the total time credited.

I know on my car this year, a 7th place autocross turned into a mid pack finish for an apparent cone (we didn't see any cones hit).

Also, I was really glad to hear JG making an effort to help newbie track worker's understand how to count or not count cones, but heard plenty called in before they could have been verified.

IIRC, Wreck Racing never got a clean run last year.

Keith Tanner wrote: I would personally rather see the cars built with an emphasis on autox instead of drag...

The current scoring system already favors the autox by a factor of 3-5 X (depending on the length of the autox).

A slow course biases the scoring more toward the autox (which is kind of backward).

AngryCorvair wrote: +2

Well played.

I spent 5-6 years autocrossing with a club where cones were +1 second, people intentionally blowing them was never an issue. We did tend to use a lot more cones than your typical SCCA course, though.

I agree that a 2 second penalty on a sub-60-second course might as well be a DNF as far as competitive runs goes.

no.

Actually, thinking about it more, keeping the 2 seconds/cone encourages building more controllable cars overall. That's probably a good thing...