Challenge Rule-Change Proposal

Basically, seats... Why are they not considered a "safety-item", and therefore budget-exempt?

Granted, a true race-seat could give an advantage at the auto-x, compared to either stock seats, or JC-Whitney crap that someone put in their car, because that's what would fit in the budget.

But if the rule was open, then everyone could run a "safer" seat, with their personal budget determining their level of safety, as opposed to their Challenge budget.

With the times and trap-speeds being posted in the drags, I believe that a good seat is a true safety item.

The reason I'm bringing this up is watching the cage being fabbed-up for Aussiesmg's Challenge Mustang.

The guy building the cage crashed his GT-3 Miata at Mid-Ohio a few years back. Woke up 8 days and 3 hospitals later... Had a "decent" Kidney aluminum seat, but all it took was a 60-mph pancake-hit on the driver's side to nearly kill him.

With the speeds people are running at the strip, the potential is there for a serious hit... And we have guys running crap-ass plastic dune-buggy seats, because they have to to stay under budget.

I'm pretty good at physics, but I'm not following how a seat makes a big difference in a wreck, someone help me out please.

Do the cheap plastic seats rip off the mounting bolts, or deform so that the belts aren't in the proper place? would a better aluminum seat keep this from happening?

vs

into a wall sideways at 75mph which would you rather be in

are you saying that the the benefit is the metal side keeps the door/door bar/cage from intruding into your side? How thick is the aluminum on those side panels? I thought they were really thin, and wouldn't provide much extra energy absorption/ penetration protection.

icaneat50eggs wrote: I'm pretty good at physics, but I'm not following how a seat makes a big difference in a wreck, someone help me out please. Do the cheap plastic seats rip off the mounting bolts, or deform so that the belts aren't in the proper place? would a better aluminum seat keep this from happening?

Doesn't have to be an aluminum seat, but I truly believe that any certified race seat should be exempted from the budget.

Cheap-ass seats tend to break in an impact, and most cars in the Challenge came stock with seats that do not play nicely with a proper harness.

The typical answer when someone asks about buying a helmet is "how much is your brain worth?"

Well, with seats, how much is your ass worth???

I'd be ok with the change, but such seats will never be in my car.

I have a much higher chance of getting in a major accident driving my Challenge car to work everyday than I do wrecking it at 100mph+ on the drag strip. I'm not interested in paying for a certified seat that will only be used once a year, and I'll take my chances.

But I'm not against others doing it for no budget hit, though weight can be wildly improved. (I can lose over 80lbs with seats in my car.)

I bet the plastic ones are lighter than most certified seats and are not approved.

Will is just suggesting that those who chose to install a real race seat correctly should be able to be exempted from a budget hit similar to how the roll cage and harnesses are. Not mandatory but available.

I second that emotion.

Pardon me, while I play the Devil's Advocate.

What is the likley hood of cars that are participating in the GRM $20xx challenge going into a wall sideways at 70 mph?

If challenge cars are participating in events other than the challenge where such safety measures are warranted, or mandated, then add safety equipment when needed.

GRMers are a very resourceful and creative community, people that can build 10 second K-cars and DIY AWD, can probably figure out how to get seats that are safer than fiberglass dunebuggy seats into the budget.

For the record, I have never participated in the GRM $20xx challenge, but I've watched it from afar with great interest, and hope to be involved someday. I am concerned that cost creep due to both mandatory and "free" items will have a negative effect on the affordability and spirit of the challenge.

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icaneat50eggs wrote: are you saying that the the benefit is the metal side keeps the door/door bar/cage from intruding into your side? How thick is the aluminum on those side panels? I thought they were really thing, and wouldn't provide much extra energy absorption/ penetration protection.

Nope... Its not so much about a door-bar intruding into your space... That would involve a serious high-speed t-bone incident into the driver's door. This is not a typical thing at the.Challenge.

It's all about trying to keep a driver's skull connected to his spine, if the worst-case-scenario ever happens.

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HappyAndy wrote: Pardon me, while I play the Devil's Advocate. What is the likley hood of cars that are participating in the GRM $20xx challenge going into a wall sideways at 70 mph? If challenge cars are participating in events other than the challenge where such safety measures are warranted, or mandated, then add safety equipment when needed..

My terminal speed when the engine shut down in the drags was 100 mph, coasting from 7/8 track, what do you think the sub 12 second cars are doing?

For example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=877laVJov4E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrcMYjkZhMw

At what speeds do these seats become mandated?

Swank Force One wrote: I'd be ok with the change, but such seats will never be in my car. I have a much higher chance of getting in a major accident driving my Challenge car to work everyday than I do wrecking it at 100mph+ on the drag strip. I'm not interested in paying for a certified seat that will only be used once a year, and I'll take my chances. But I'm not against others doing it for no budget hit, though weight can be wildly improved. (I can lose over 80lbs with seats in my car.)

Yeah, I agree with you about commuting to work every day being ass-loads more dangerous than running your car in Gainesville.

But for those willing to throw some extra $$ at their Challenge car for this, I think it should be allowed.

Yes, there is some weight to be pulled out of a car by swapping to a shiny new race seat, but last I knew, there were no minimum weights to build your car to...

129 mph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNCIpB2cDo

I am opposed to further rules creep, and recognize that seats can make a measurable performance advantage.

As noted earlier, 80 lb weight loss is possible.

But the bigger issue is that the Challenge scoring is weighted heavy for the Autox. Any seat that holds the driver firmer in position is likely to improve times.

I have used certified race seats in most of my cars, and included the cost in my budget.

The Challenge is first and foremost a budget game. If you can't play the budget game, stay out of the Challenge. No offense.

Regretfully, I was the one who opened this can of worms by suggesting an exemption for factory brakes, as a safety concern. It has grown (as Per predicted) into excessive rules creep, and is undermining the entire premise of the Challenge.

Anyone can build a race car for under $20XX if most of the important components are "budget exempt".

humm, seems like there is a case for GRM to get a safety sponsor and run a budget friendly spec seat that could be left out of the budget since GRM controlled the cost.

That would fix the problem all the way around.

If you are concerned about it, just keep looking. I picked up a slightly expired FIA-rated composite seat on CL for $50 last summer. That's about the safest thing you can get and it was just as cheap as any used aluminum or plastic seat.

I feel like this is a repeat...

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2012-rules-question-seats-arent-safety-items/50946/page1/

The N600 had a scrap price Kirkey knock off. Brand new ones really aren't much money, just a matter of priorities...which is more important for your build, time or money?

Bryce

Disclaimer: Like HappyAndy, I've never participated in the challenge. I've been there several times to watch, though, and even hauled an unfinished car to Gainesville there to show off. As a non-competitor, my opinion probably won't have much weight; but I'll offer it anyway.

SVreX wrote: The Challenge is first and foremost a budget game. If you can't play the budget game, stay out of the Challenge. No offense.

The challenge is difficult. (Probably why it is not called "the walk in the park") It is designed to be difficult. It was supposed to demonstrate that, given enough time and effort, someone could build a race car for ~$2K.

Rule creep is already changing the game entirely.......in the past, people had to scrounge for good tires. The Kumho tire exemption has totally changed that: Now the question is if you can afford the extra $1000 (that won't count in your budget) for V710s.

There are plenty of cars that compete in the challenge with stock seats. IMHO, the only reason people are considering other seats is that they are trying to build a car to do more than compete in the challenge. These people seem to think the idea is to build a car to compete in [insert race series of your choice] for $2K. They are wrong.

If you can't build what you want on a challenge budget, there are already two options open to you:

1) Enter the challenge, then add your fancy seats for other events AFTER.

2) Build what you want, go over the challenge budget, and come enjoy the insanity anyway. It looks like Rule 30 (from $2012, anyway) would allow an over-budget car to run for exhibition without being a competitor. There are not a lot of bragging rights in that, but you can at least see how your handiwork stacks up to that of the competitors

Nashco wrote: The N600 had a scrap price Kirkey knock off.

That's some beautiful fabrication work

SVreX wrote: I am opposed to further rules creep, and recognize that seats can make a measurable performance advantage. As noted earlier, 80 lb weight loss is possible. But the bigger issue is that the Challenge scoring is weighted heavy for the Autox. Any seat that holds the driver firmer in position is likely to improve times. I have used certified race seats in most of my cars, and included the cost in my budget. The Challenge is first and foremost a budget game. If you can't play the budget game, stay out of the Challenge. No offense. Regretfully, I was the one who opened this can of worms by suggesting an exemption for factory brakes, as a safety concern. It has grown (as Per predicted) into excessive rules creep, and is undermining the entire premise of the Challenge. Anyone can build a race car for under $20XX if most of the important components are "budget exempt".

Amen brother! I put a certified seat in my 2004 challenge car and I was amazed at the difference in the auto-X. I also counted the cost against my budget.
Tires and an LSD are a safety items too. Yeah, I'm going off on a tangent but the point remains. It feels like LeMons here. I was excited at the prospect of doing a LeMons race, until I crunched the numbers and realized that the $500 race car was going to cost $5,000.
If someone wants to run a race seat so they can get home in one piece, more power to 'em....and less left in the budget.

extra exemptions make the cars faster, and it makes them cost more, although that's not shown in the official budget. Making the challenge more expensive is, IMHO, a move in the wrong direction.

I have an RCI seat for the Yugo that cost me a whopping $25. You can find cheap seats if you look. There are already enough budget exempted items including the Kumhos that I don't think adding another is really helpful.

DrBoost wrote: It feels like LeMons here. I was excited at the prospect of doing a LeMons race, until I crunched the numbers and realized that the $500 race car was going to cost $5,000.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I argued for additional safety items to be excluded from the Challenge budget a few years ago (I was hung up on roll bars/cages). I'm all for safety items being used in a build and cringe at the thought of some catastrophic event, but, at some point, the $20xx Challenge will become LeMons/Chump if the budget exclusions continue.

I'm part of a group working on a Chump car right now and the $5000 number is pretty darn close to what we've budgeted. I realize that is cheap, in relative terms, for a race car, but pretty comical for a "$500" crap can event.

dyintorace wrote:

DrBoost wrote: It feels like LeMons here. I was excited at the prospect of doing a LeMons race, until I crunched the numbers and realized that the $500 race car was going to cost $5,000.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I argued for additional safety items to be excluded from the Challenge budget a few years ago (I was hung up on roll bars/cages). I'm all for safety items being used in a build and cringe at the thought of some catastrophic event, but, at some point, the $20xx Challenge will become LeMons/Chump if the budget exclusions continue. I'm part of a group working on a Chump car right now and the $5000 number is pretty darn close to what we've budgeted. I realize that is cheap, in relative terms, for a race car, but pretty comical for a "$500" crap can event.

To be fair, Lemons is a lot more dangerous than the Challenge. Also, that sum is a bit off. We've done it for less, much less, and the entry fees are a lot of that cost. Just the car came in around $1000 I think including all of the safety items the first time, more like $1500 the second time. You can't really get a real road racing cage in any car for less than $500, but you sure as heck need one to race like that.

tuna55 wrote:

dyintorace wrote:

DrBoost wrote: It feels like LeMons here. I was excited at the prospect of doing a LeMons race, until I crunched the numbers and realized that the $500 race car was going to cost $5,000.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I argued for additional safety items to be excluded from the Challenge budget a few years ago (I was hung up on roll bars/cages). I'm all for safety items being used in a build and cringe at the thought of some catastrophic event, but, at some point, the $20xx Challenge will become LeMons/Chump if the budget exclusions continue. I'm part of a group working on a Chump car right now and the $5000 number is pretty darn close to what we've budgeted. I realize that is cheap, in relative terms, for a race car, but pretty comical for a "$500" crap can event.

To be fair, Lemons is a lot more dangerous than the Challenge. Also, that sum is a bit off. We've done it for less, much less, and the entry fees are a lot of that cost. Just the car came in around $1000 I think including all of the safety items the first time, more like $1500 the second time. You can't really get a real road racing cage in any car for less than $500, but you sure as heck need one to race like that.

Agreed on the danger point. I wasn't suggesting that the Challenge is nearly as dangerous. Just that the more items that are excluded from the Challenge budget, the more it becomes like a LeMons/Chump car effort.

As for the Chump car budget, you certainly did well. Our full cage, built by a very reputable builder in our area, is costing us $1500. That, plus the purchase price of the car, puts us just over $2k before we address any issues with the car or add brakes, wheels, tires, seat, fire suppression, etc.