Challenge Thoughts

Coming from a couch competitor...

Would it be feasible to have an all-in-one track? (I know it depends mainly on the venue.) I'm thinking a drag run that turns off into the auto-x portion which then leads into the "rally-x" portion.

The "rally-x" portion needn't be any more than another auto-x course with some sand/dirt/gravel/water/whatever thrown on the pavement. ...and replenished/swept after each run.

No competitor would have a tire advantage because no tire could do it all well.

Timing could be based on the singular run or broken down and indexed.

Just thinking out loud, Keith

unevolved wrote: I think adding a mandatory rallycross would reduce the quality of cars entered. Bear with me. Look at the top finishing cars this year, namely the Vorshlag and Nelson entries. Both of those cars are optimized for pavement, one for AutoX, one for drag. Both would suffer significantly if they had to be able to tear around through the dirt as well. I think it'd be a case of "jack of all trades, master of none."

I absolutely see your point. My thought was that it would only be optional and not be able to add more than a 5% score boost to the best rally-xer. Might encourage building a little sturdier car to pick up the extra. Wouldn't it be cool if someone built a car that could hang close enough in the drag and auto-x that it could pick up an overall with the rally-x?

Like I said, I see and partially agree with you but wanted to explain my thoughts a little more.

As a pro driver that has to exit 10-15 cars that i have never driven before, i would really like having the fire bottle within reach just to keep the flames at bay till the crash crew arrives. Without panick it took a long time to exit some of the cars.

I would also like to add "Exit handles" to the interior. Several cars required pulling unmarked rods to open doors. Under the stress of fire/crash/rollover exit could be severly hindered.

I'm not sure how it is done in Florida, but to get around the licensing/street legal issue, could one get a simple temporary trip permit?

Typically, you just need proof of insurance (doesn't have to be for the car in question) and a title/registration and a valid driver's license.

Just a thought.

I like the Parc-firme idea.

I like the idea of a meeting of the builders at 8am so everyone could see where each competitor spent his budget or have a plaque in your pit so everyone including spectators could see how you did it.NO rallycross I don't think the challenge was designed for it.However theres tons of places to hold them in central and northern FL but maybe that could be held in TX?? so us guys from FL can travel a bit.It could be kinda like a budget 20XX challenged Pikes peak??

Per, I'm glad to see the organizers wondering 'what if' instead of being locked into the typical 'we always do it this way' mentality.

As for tires, I really like the idea of going to the crap-can idea of not only setting a minimum treadwear rating, but also go one step further and take them out of the budget. Some teams are fortunate enough to know a LOT of autocrossers and so nationals take-offs are easy to get. Others are not so lucky. If we ALL could simply buy a set of tires with at least a 190 treadwear (an example) then we could test and tune on them and they'd still be fine 6 months (or 18 months!) later for the challenge. By taking them OUT of the budget it levels the playing field a good deal more.

This hurts our team since we DO know tons of autocrossers, but I think it would make a better overall event. Perhaps partner with XXXX (Kumho? Tire Rack?) to be the place tires must be purchased (like One Lap does). Marketing tie-ins FTW.

Fire Extinguishers = YES.

Also maybe let any car with lugbolts replace them with studs at no cost to the budget for safety reasons.

Costas

cars and such...

Overall great event. Thanks to the GRM team. I was there as an observer this year as Also Ran Racing's car is not completed yet, but will be next year! I wanted to see how the event went and watch the competition.

Some interesting comments being made. I agree that tech was very lax. I watched it for a while specifically to find out how "picky" they would be. Answer: not very. Some minor things got a "fix it next time". Some things didn't get checked at all. Everyone benefits from a good check.

The "street" equipment was missing on a number of entries. If it's required it should be there for everyone. Not sure if very many of these cars see a lot of street use so maybe the rule should just be dropped. You can always have lights, etc. if you want them.

I personally would not like to see a tire rule change for all the reasons folks have listed above. No upside to it.

A bit of tightening might be needed on budget fudging. There was some grumbling about a few "over the top" cars. Not calling anyone out but if this was a claiming event I would have written a $2011 check and would have something new in my garage. I'm just saying.

It was a shame that the weather altered the outcome. Maybe allowing both events on one day if weather is forcast to be a problem is a good idea. A blistering 10.5 in the quarter and it doesn't count....ouch.

I am all for safety and allowing safety gear to be exempt from the budget. Many cars chose their roll bar/ cage/ no cage selection based on the weld or bolt in rule. That seems contrary to safety interests. I would just allow cages or roll bars meeting NHRA specs to be exempt, period. That also solves the problem of cars that run NASA, SCCA, etc. and the different specs for cages.

One change in format that I would like to see next year is that at least one member from each team has to sign up to be available for course work. Some auto-x course workers were stuck out on course for 5 hours with no relief as nobody answered the call for volunteers. (I have the sunburn to prove it) It's a simple change that would fix a problem and in line with other auto-x events.

Congrats to all the participants. Win or not there were some great cars there. A lot of friendly folks. We will see you there next year with a type of car that has never participated in the Challenge before. Can't wait.

Give me a day or so and links to all the photos that I took at the event will be posted at www.alsoranracing.com

The claimer rule is inevitably brought up every year, and it's justly dismissed, in my opinion. Being forced to sell your car for the cost of the parts you put into it is very plainly saying the work put into the car was worthless. I know the guys who rolled on all 9 coats of our paint or the Vorshlag guys who hand-cut all of their stripes from vinyl scraps would tend to disagree with you.

Argo1 wrote: One change in format that I would like to see next year is that at least one member from each team has to sign up to be available for course work. Some auto-x course workers were stuck out on course for 5 hours with no relief as nobody answered the call for volunteers. (I have the sunburn to prove it) It's a simple change that would fix a problem and in line with other auto-x events.

I have to say that would be hard on us who, drove 15 hours to the event, ran all weekend and drove 15 hours home, alone.

Maybe for teams of 4 or more, but for me it wasn't possible, someone had to check the lug nuts.

Pat---I should have added that this year was different, and there were twice as many votes for you as there were for any other car.

Per

I have noooooo desire to be a course worker. I am messing with the car or checking out competitors cars and don't want to miss it to stand on the course. I would prefer to pay an extra $5 to never have to work a course. If the mag wanted to use all those extra $5 to pay people who don't mind working the course that would be fine by me.

Ok--useful ideas.

1) Each team/car must supply at least one 'man hour' to help work the autocross course. This will be handled at registration under a first come, first served basis for signing up for spots.

2) Team Budgets must be printed out and available to all other competitors in addition to the build documentation that's given to the judges/staff.

still thinking about the rest.

Pat wrote: It's already getting a bit far from the $2000 range when you factor in safety belts, brake parts, brake lines, roll bars, now wheel studs, etc. Make it a real $2k event again. Just my opinion.

I can see some of that, and here's my proposal: Wheel studs/nuts are still part of the $2000 budget, but if you lose a wheel you're DQed from the event. Spend your money as you see fit.

Personally, assuming my car was in good working order, i'd be more than happy to tend the course for an hour.

Certainly not advocating a claiming rule. Just encouraging budget scrutiny and transparency.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Personally, assuming my car was in good working order, i'd be more than happy to tend the course for an hour.

That is a very bold assumption for most competitors.

On Friday all we did was coucours, change to autocross wheels, change tire pressures, bolt up the rear bar, talk to the pro about proper changes, and clean the car for concours. That took all day. It was a good running car that experienced no problems and there wasn't a spare hour available. If their had been a spare hour I would have spent it checking out competitors cars. It is the one time a year a large group of like minded people are within walking distance and I really don't want to miss it.

Budget grumbling is part of the Challenge, as far as I can tell.

The "all-in-one" course is an interesting one. Car and Driver used to do that for their Supertuner challenges. They'd use an oval with a road course for the event. They'd start off in the pit lane and do a 1/4 mile drag start, then into the infield road course before getting spat on to the banking for a run up to xx MPH and then braking to a full stop. Shortest elapsed time wins.

Obviously not something you'd want to do in most Challenge cars, but the drag race into the road/autox course would make things pretty interesting. The teams would have to figure out how to make the car work for both aspects without changing setup in between. It means you need to be able to rent a facility that can accommodate this, though, and that may be the biggest problem.

I like the rules just the way they are. I think if too many concessions are made then the credibility of the budget cap comes under scrutiny. Lug studs are cheap and it costs nothing to make sure they are tight. The fire extinguisher idea sounds good to me as it adds some safety and doesn't change the vehicle's performance potential.

As far as lights, I think the idea is to have cars that photograph well. I don't think it is to make the car street legal. My understanding of the Challenge is to bring the baddest most rip snortin car you can for under budget and following the rules. that includes using the best, widest tires you can find. If your car is insured and street legal then tell the editor. It will get printed and you'll get props for doing so well in a street car.

As far as rally x... have you seen Per at this event? The guy's stressed as it is. Adding another discipline could push him over the edge. Besides, do you think the crew at the drag strip would let us run mud laden cars down their nice clean track?

wasnt able to go.. but just wanted to give per a shout out for bein an awesome guy....

As a past competor I can say I'd LOVE to see some sort of a goal to shoot for in the concours portion. I also know the reason folks grumble about the cars that don't seem to be in the budget but there's no way to really police that. I mean, I could "buy" one of my co-workers Keith Black engines, install it in the Vette I got from my dad for $10. Then after the challenge I sell it all back.
I don't see any way to stop things like that (I am exaggerating) from happening.
I REALLY like the idea of the car-show aspect of it. Very cool.

Per Schroeder wrote: 1) Each team/car must supply at least one 'man hour' to help work the autocross course. This will be handled at registration under a first come, first served basis for signing up for spots.

I think it's a good idea but there should be some exemption for two-person teams and below.

• I really like the idea of having the budget on display with each entry. I saw some engine/transmission combos I'd like to use in a non-$20xx car and would like to know where they were found and how much was paid.

• On another note, one idea that came up was using a portable wheel dyno to check power to weight ratio. The result could factor into the overall score somehow.

• Aaron

Hey hrdlydangerous- You guys had your street equipment. Who says headlights have to be aligned? Your car certainly did photograph well! The attention to detail on your car was amazing. Well deserved win in the concours.

How about a rule that requires reading the rules??

I don't get it- the current rules require DOT legal tires. I've accepted this is generally not enforced, but it's already there. It's an SCCA requirement, so not enforcing it is a pretty big bend in the rules.

Regarding road worthiness: there is nothing in the rules that says either registered, street legal, or licensed. They say "road worthy".

I think the distance some vehicles have moved from the rules has something to do with the extent of how the rules are enforced. I'm not big into rules, but I am intimately familiar with the Challenge rules, and quite aware of how flexibly they are enforced. I'm OK with it, but I do see it.

Shouldn't the rules define the event? If the goal is cool editorial content, don't enforce too many rules. If loose rules are encouraging vehicles that do not generate the kind of content desired, write new rules that encourage the right stuff.

I am personally a big fan of what I call radical builds. Engineering marvels like Bryce's, Pat's, mid-engined trucks, or the Nelson's. If these are the best editorial content, then add bonus concourse points for radical builds. If the best editorial content is modified street Miatas with bolt-ons, limit the over-engineered.

At the core, it's all still about the content, right?

SVreX- All good valid points. There are plenty of rules to insure a good event. They just need to be followed. Some might need to be tightened up a bit like "basic street equipment" - what exactly is that? It is an editorial event and the radical builds are the headliners so rules don't need to be too restrictive -- just enforced. Maybe not with DSQ but with points off, etc.

A6s and the like are DOT legal...therefore legal for our autocross, and there is another rule that drag tires don't have to be DOT approved.