Challenge Thoughts

Man, I can't help thinking that from the comments in this thread that a lot of folks are simply way under-informed (ignorant) of the kind of cars and they way they're built in SCCA style rally-x.

Not fun to drive on the street?!?!!! Really? I know several serious stage rally folks, and those cars are 10 times as serious as the typical average SCCA rally-x entry, and those damn cars can be downright awesome on the street. Hell, ever heard of tarmac rally? Well, they're the same cars that run gravel rally with some different setup choices. Not only that, but they are required to be street legal for transit stages to meet sanctioning body rules.

Besides, many (most?) SCCA rally-x cars are in fact street cars. Sure, some may strap on mud flaps, dial up the coilovers, and maybe run rally tires, or snow tires if you're broke (though many run good ol' fashioned all-seasons too).

And on top of that, SCCA rally-x classification rules are pretty damn simple compared to the auto-x classification rules. Like 2wd, modified 2wd, 4wd, and modified 4wd; though there are discussions of separating the 2wd classes into FWD and RWD. Ooooo.... how complicated. (that's sarcasm BTW).

My point is, don't go getting all wacky about the rally-x idea just because it means leaving the road more travelled.

But as I said, I've already withdrawn my rally-x suggestion.

fastclown wrote: Shipping: Why would we penalize someone that lives in the middle of nowhere by making them spend a lot of their budget on shipping, while some people live down the street from some of the best automotive swap meets in the country. Eliminate the shipping costs from the budget and make it an equal playing field for all, no matter where they live. When someone shows off their car anywhere and says "I have 10K in it" does the other guy ask "How much did you spend on shipping?"

Caveat - I live in Northern Ontario - I don't even know someone who autocrosses. Is it likley that I will ever get to the Challenge? - who knows but I have two young sons that I want to get into the "car hobbies" that their dad enjoys.

This is a deal killer for me and I would guess most Canadians. I am a 5 hr drive to the border. If I am looking for a rust-free car to start with, I am probably going to be over the $2XXX costs just in shipping costs.

I understand from Per's post why this issue is there but it is a huge deterent for some of us. I already have to pay stupid shipping costs on most items.

BTW on the issues of rally-X suspensions - most people use stock or close-to-stock suspensions. Compliance and the ability to absorb the bumps is king. Think KYB GR-2's and such. I am pretty sure that most of you have way more money in your Auto-X suspensions.

I forgot about the Ebay way... Since paperwork is a fact for the Challenge this has a simple solution. You by a $1 part with $45 shipping off Ebay. You go on Postal/UPS websites and put in the size/weight from them to you and see the real shipping, do the math and see what the part really costs. I would hate to think that Ebay sellers are going to control this rule...

I would have come to the meeting if there were cookies...

the stuff i got on ebay was so cheap, i didnt mind the shipping added it. i got injectors for $8.50 shipped. lol

but i kinda get the shipping thing. i dont see any real way to control that either. sure you could shipping quote everything you get from ebay, but damn, thats a lot of work

PhilStubbs wrote: the stuff i got on ebay was so cheap, i didnt mind the shipping added it. i got injectors for $8.50 shipped. lol but i kinda get the shipping thing. i dont see any real way to control that either. sure you could shipping quote everything you get from ebay, but damn, thats a lot of work

Yeah. Most of us (I think) are concerned with big hard parts. Car shells, engines, transmissions and the like. If I drive to go get one of those, I am boned in transportation costs unless I make up a bum excuse for having to go there anyway. Figuring out what ebay shipping a rotting car shell would be a nightmare.

Shipping/transport is definitely a tricky one. Living in the rust belt, it's hard to find a good starter car, so it'd be nice to not have to include the cost of hauling something up from Atlanta.

On the other hand, my brother-in-law works in Japan occasionally. It'd be pretty unfair for me to get a container full of R32 front clips, without the shipping costs.

Purchase price on car shells/projects don't need to include shipping?

I haven't been to a challenge (want to eventually, but maine is a long way away), but I will provide my feedback anyway.

Tires - For fairness' sake, I like the idea of a spec tire, or making them free from the budget, but how do you make it work? If you spec an ST-type tire, the sizes are limited and you'll be ruling out a lot of cars right out of the gate. If you spec an A6 or V710, you might be doubling the build budget for a lot of teams. If you spec some other cheaper R-comp, it will probably suck at autocross, and who wants to pay for a brand new set of tires that aren't even good at the thing you're using them for? An open tire budget makes sense for something like Lemons, because the tires have to last and be safe for a whole race, but for the challenge they only have to survive a few autocross runs.

Shipping -I agree that shipping costs should not have to ding the budget. It's already bad enough that more remote/northern members have to spend a lot more (time and money) just to get to the event, but it's even less fair if I also have to kill my budget to go down south and get a clean shell to build up. It also seems inconsistent to include shipping, but not the costs of getting the vehicle to the event. The ebay nonsense should fix itself somewhat now that ebay is requiring sellers to collect fees on shipping costs, and frankly let people throw as many 99 cent ebay junk parts at the car as they want, I bet the winning cars won't be.

UTCC - I love the idea of aligning the challenge with the UTCC, although I don't think that should replace the current event. I would be a lot more likely to attend a UTCC challenge, both based on geography and the fact that I'd much rather build a car for autox/track than drag racing. I suck at drag racing, I think it's boring, and things seem to break on dragstrips at about 100X the rate that things break at autox or track days. That said, I absolutely love seeing projects like Andy's bug and it would suck a lot if the drag oriented projects went away. 1/4 mile times are also a great way to sell magazines, and to convince casual observers of the awesomeness of the vehicles that get built for this event.

RallyX - give it up, guys. I love rallyx, but I don't even think it would be safe to take most of the existing challengers to a rallyx. For one, it would eliminate the open cars right off. I know rallyx suspensions don't have to be sophisticated, but they'd still have to be drastically different than a good autox setup. I think the biggest strike though is the fact that low traction equalizes cars to a great degree. This is a car building competition, not a driving one, and most rallycrosses I have been to, a great driver in a slow stock FWD or AWD car on rally tires can set FTD. You'd also have to use rallyx type cumulative scoring to be fair due to the surface variability affecting times, and that precludes being able to have pro drivers or multiple team members run for the best times. Rallyx is a lot of fun, but it just doesn't mesh well with a car building competition, especially if you expect those cars to be able to do anything other than rallyx.

Per Schroeder wrote: Purchase price on car shells/projects don't need to include shipping?

That sounds like the simplest way to handle the whole thing basically no shipping on parts car or the car that is used but all other parts cost should include shipping.

93EXCivic wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: Purchase price on car shells/projects don't need to include shipping?

That sounds like the simplest way to handle the whole thing basically no shipping on parts car or the car that is used but all other parts cost should include shipping.

I drove three hours one way to pick up a 12 bolt rear end for $20. Now, if this had been for the challenge, I would have budgeted as if the camping trip we made it into (seriously did, in a tent and everything) was the reason for the trip and cleverly budgeted it out, but is this really the intent? I found a rear end for $20! I should be able to just drive and go get it rather than camping overnight to take it out of the budget.

I could do the same with a transmission or cylinder head(s) just as easily. Does that mean I have to use gas for these expenses as well? How about just making the exception the other way, any ebay et al items have to account for shipping? Not really sure, but driving and picking something up is a lot like fabricating from a creativity standpoint. You don't make people hit the budget for capital expenses like a welder, a hoist, argon, grinder wheels etc... why hit people up for shipping unless you have a ton of outrageous examples?

nocones wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: One specific answer to one of Mike's suggestions---Shipping must not be used to lower the price of the purchased part, ala eBay---Right now, there's a lot of parts that can be purchased for .99 and then cost $30 for shipping. Per

I think this could be worked around. What I think Mike means is that if I have to drive say 16 hours to Georgia to pick up a $1 subaru 360 shell that was offered to the entire GRM comunity why should the gas for me to go get it cost my challenge budget when someone else who lives 10 miles away could of got it for free. The car cost $1 to buy and anyone could have. Current rules it will hit the Challenge budget for $256.76 but If I lived in atlanta it would of only hit the budget for ~$20. Just seems unfair if the point is that Anyone can replicate the car for ~$20XX. The cost of the car doesn't really vary depending on where you live just possibly your cost to aquire the same parts.

This rule has one of the easiest workarounds of any of the challenge rules. Attach the pickup to a trip you might do anyway. Example: One of the methods I used was to take my wife to an outlet mall 25 miles from a parts car pickup. I bought her a nice jacket and saved $100 off of my challenge budget at the same time. It had the added benefit of turning something that usually would have resulted in a grumpy wife from my absence and return with a rusty hunk of crap into an overall positive experience.

Mike Guido's post +1

For those who are interested, the photos that I shot at the event can be found here: www.alsoranracing.com The good, the bad, and the pointless.

So a guy that lives next to/near/in a town with a big population can get a used nitrous system for $100. A guy living in the middle of nowhere has to add the $20 in shipping or visit his grandmother in the big town? Just get rid of it for North American purchases. See I just excluded my MG Metro...

"You don't make people hit the budget for capital expenses like a welder, a hoist, argon, grinder wheels etc... " Don't get me started on the new tool rule!

FMV: As with everything in America, money takes place of creativity and hard work. The Challenge is becoming a shoppers challenge, not a builders challenge. Did anybody see a pair of Vette's this year, seriously?!? Put those 2 on the cover of GRM with "1K and 2K Vette's" and see how many new teams come out to play. When more time is spent on the "paperwork" then the car, something is wrong.

I'm not sure why you singled out the two Vettes, but really?

I bought my Vette off Craigslist for $1000.00. I included the original add and bill of sale, which included the pictures of the car, in the "paperwork". I purchased the tires and shocks "new" off ebay. I included the invoices, including freight, in the paperwork. Everything I bought for the build was also included from established parts dealers with invoices.

I sold the interior, that I no longer needed or wanted to a guy who was trying to buy the car, before I beat him to it, to get the interior for a car he was restoring.

I traded the TPI, ECM, AC, fuel tank and related wiring for a ten year old manifold ,carb, fuel pump and air filter. Was that FMV?

If anyone wants to know how to build a "Vette" let me know and I will give them all the info so they to can build the same car I have. Most on this forum laughed when Per posted that two C4s, and a Firebird was coming. They may have laughed but I was proud of how all three finished and I don't need to judge others builds or "paperwork",

If you want to go buy all your parts from NAPA or other retail outlets that is your choice. I would rather go shopping and get more bang for my buck.

Argo1 wrote: .... Maybe a solution to the "street"/ radical / rules debate lies in the seldom used "Locost" class. ...(snip to save our eyes)... The Locost class isn't doing any good as is. Why not use it to fix the "street" debate?

1)This is intriguing...

2)As a proponent of adding a rally-x component to the challenge, I would never want it to replace the drag or the auto-x. I like the challenge the way it is, and am just offering ideas I, personally, find interesting. the point about a rally-x requiring a little more creativity and durability were part of my thinking. I do see the point about dirty cars on a dragstrip, however. I would think it would have to be the later half of the last day.

3)drifting, eh? also intriguing.... 3 judges, each scores you on a 1-5 scale and the average is multiplied by .25 to provide the number of seconds taken of the total dynamic time. This would be really fun but I don't see how it could be fair to put too much weight into something so subjective. I guess FWD would be an issue...

GREATGOOGALYMOOGALY! I'VE GOT IT! dirt drift! same drift rules as above but on a tiny dirt course. let's the awd/fwd mix it up some as well.

..and while we're at it, i'd like a pony, and a rocketship and a..

fastclown wrote: I forgot about the Ebay way... Since paperwork is a fact for the Challenge this has a simple solution. You by a $1 part with $45 shipping off Ebay. You go on Postal/UPS websites and put in the size/weight from them to you and see the real shipping, do the math and see what the part really costs. I would hate to think that Ebay sellers are going to control this rule... I would have come to the meeting if there were cookies...

wouldn't it be simpler that if you pick it up or drive it yourself, no ship fee, no matter where it is? if it's actually shipped by someone, you pay the shipping.

"I'm not sure why you singled out the two Vettes, but really?" Seriously? I'm not challenging the legality of the 1K car, I'm challenging the rules that let it happen. You show me 3 vettes for under/at 1K with 1K worth of parts to sell and I'm a happy camper. The 2K vette needs to fall under the new tear down rule...

re- the "race" class suggestion- good one, but it was tried before. Not many entered, and it ended. I'd just say keep the locost class, maybe expand it's acceptance, although any homebuild/kit fits there. It's more a catch all vs. real lotus clones.

did the winning car have the "required" sponsor stickers?

or do they camo in their graphix?

We had issues with them not wanting to put the Kumho sticker on the front, but I believe they had the rest of the required stickers.

Per Schroeder wrote: Purchase price on car shells/projects don't need to include shipping?

With the caveat that it needs to be from North America, sounds good to me.

Though I do fear the potential proliferation of rules/exceptions to rules. I just don't know of any other equitable way to deal with it.

G1 wrote:

FMV: As with everything in America, money takes place of creativity and hard work. The Challenge is becoming a shoppers challenge, not a builders challenge. Did anybody see a pair of Vette's this year, seriously?!? Put those 2 on the cover of GRM with "1K and 2K Vette's" and see how many new teams come out to play. When more time is spent on the "paperwork" then the car, something is wrong.

I'm not sure why you singled out the two Vettes, but really? I bought my Vette off Craigslist for $1000.00. I included the original add and bill of sale, which included the pictures of the car, in the "paperwork". I purchased the tires and shocks "new" off ebay. I included the invoices, including freight, in the paperwork. Everything I bought for the build was also included from established parts dealers with invoices. I sold the interior, that I no longer needed or wanted to a guy who was trying to buy the car, before I beat him to it, to get the interior for a car he was restoring. I traded the TPI, ECM, AC, fuel tank and related wiring for a ten year old manifold ,carb, fuel pump and air filter. Was that FMV? If anyone wants to know how to build a "Vette" let me know and I will give them all the info so they to can build the same car I have. Most on this forum laughed when Per posted that two C4s, and a Firebird was coming. They may have laughed but I was proud of how all three finished and I don't need to judge others builds or "paperwork", If you want to go buy all your parts from NAPA or other retail outlets that is your choice. I would rather go shopping and get more bang for my buck.

I was gonna bring a $500 Nissan Skyline this year... Yes $500.... Anything can be found cheap if you look.

PS - The vettes were beautiful - great job

You show me 3 vettes for under/at 1K with 1K worth of parts to sell and I'm a happy camper.

Well, you saw one, but if you are truly interested I will keep you in mind. Just make sure your camping gear is in good order.