Changing your oil too often?

From a Yahoo link about unnecessary auto repairs:

"That oil change? Turns out every 5,000 miles is often enough. New oil has chemicals that eat away the catalytic converter, says Donny Seyfer, a Colorado-based certified master technician, and changing oil too often can damage that pricey part."

The rest of the article is here:

Linky

I would think that if you're burning enough oil that the chemicals from the oil get into your catalytic converter, you've got bigger problems.

And I'm going to trust a mechanic about when to change my oil because?

A stupid article by a stupid author for a stupid publication for stupid people. One of the wonderful by-product of the interweb.

MASTER TECHNICIAN! He must be right if he's the master. Reminds me of that story about the guy who worked as a baiter on a fishing charter long enough to work his way up the ladder. He became a master of his trade too.

Change your oil per the recommended procedure for your car. Some cars say 3000 miles. Some cars say 8000 miles. Some cars tell you to change it based on how the car is used. The factory has done lots of testing to determine the proper time to change your oil for your specific engine, car, etc. Why ignore it?

Bryce

Nashco wrote: MASTER TECHNICIAN! He must be right if he's the master. Reminds me of that story about the guy who worked as a baiter on a fishing charter long enough to work his way up the ladder. He became a master of his trade too. Change your oil per the recommended procedure for your car. Some cars say 3000 miles. Some cars say 8000 miles. Some cars tell you to change it based on how the car is used. The factory has done lots of testing to determine the proper time to change your oil for your specific engine, car, etc. Why ignore it? Bryce

Sometimes I wonder if the OEM change intervals are designed with the warranties and marketing in mind. It seems like a few years ago they got carried away with "0 maintenance for 100k" and it bit them and the intervals tightened again. Everything is crooked it seems. I know in my work as a product designer that there is endless friction between marketing and engineering regarding this sort of issue with marketing winning all too often.

Nashco wrote: The factory has done lots of testing to determine the proper time to change your oil for your specific engine, car, etc. Why ignore it? Bryce

Because that number has nothing to do with protecting your engine. It has everything to do with keeping cost of ownership low and, in the case of factory provided services, keeping the manufacturer's outlay for servicing to a bare minimum. Why else would oil changes go from 5000 miles to 7500 miles with zero changes to the vehicle? Why would a vehicle that holds 9 quarts of oil and has a tolerance of burning 1 quart every thousand miles have a 15000 mile interval? Why are more and more transmissions and differentials "fill for life" with no services at all? I'm an ASE master technician. I work for a high end manufacturer with a history of oil problems. I've seen and heard it all from the oil salesmen to the vehicle makers to the Jiffy Lube techs.

I change my oil every 3000 miles. 5000 in the vehicles that use synthetic. Take that however you want to. I figure a couple hundred dollars a year for some "extra" oil changes is cheaper than a couple thousand if I blow something up, and thats figuring my labor is free.

If changing my oil kills my catalytic converter... that's just an excuse to get a high flow cat, right?

you could always do it this way:

The Redneck Oil Change Checklist

1. Go to O'Reilly auto parts and write a check for $50 dollars for oil, filter, kitty litter, hand cleaner and scented tree.

2. Discover that the used oil container is full. Instead of taking it back to O'Reilly to recycle, dump in hole in back yard.

3. Open a beer and drink it.

4. Jack car up. Spend 30 minutes looking for jack stands.

5. Find jack stands under kid's pedal car.

6. In frustration, open another beer and drink it.

7. Place drain pan under engine.

8. Look for 9/16 box end wrench.

9. Give up and use crescent wrench.

10. Unscrew drain plug.

11. Drop drain plug in pan of hot oil; get hot oil on you in process.

12. Clean up.

13. Have another beer while oil is draining.

14. Look for oil filter wrench.

15. Give up; poke oil filter with screwdriver and twist it off.

16. Beer.

17. Buddy shows up; finish case with him. Finish oil change tomorrow.

18. Next day, drag pan full of old oil out from underneath car.

19. Throw kitty litter on oil spilled during step 18.

20. Beer. No, drank it all yesterday.

21. Walk to 7-11; buy beer.

22. Install new oil filter making sure to apply thin coat of clean oil to gasket first.

23. Dump first quart of fresh oil into engine.

24. Remember drain plug from step 11.

25. Hurry to find drain plug in drain pan.

26. Hurry to replace drain plug before the whole quart of fresh oil drains onto floor.

27. Slip with wrench and bang knuckles on frame.

28. Bang head on floor board in reaction.

29. Begin cussing fit.

30. Throw wrench.

31. Cuss and complain.

32. Clean up; apply Band-Aid to knuckle.

33. Beer.

34. Beer.

35. Dump in additional 4 quarts of oil.

36. Beer.

37. Lower car from jack stands

38. Accidentally crush one of the jack stands

39. Move car back to apply more kitty litter to fresh oil spilled during step 23.

40. Test drive car

41. Get pulled over; arrested for driving under the influence.

42. Car gets impounded.

43. Make bail; get car from impound yard.

Money Spent:

$50 parts

$12 beer

$75 replacement set of jack stands; hey the colors have to match!

$1000 Bail

$200 Impound and towing fee

Total: $1337

Day-um Rabbit.. that's a lot for a Juffy Lube job!

I agree with the beer part, though..

If you really want to waste a TON of time looking into motor oil and oil changes theres several places on the web where it is discussed ad nauseum:

This forum is filled w/ everyone from the layman to the salesman to the chemist who worked for Exxon for 25 years testing oil. Tons of opinions but lots of reasoning to back up those opinions:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

Then there's this test. THey took a car, switched to synthetic oil (Mobil1) and sent oil samples out to be tested after every 1000 miles of use. I think they got up to 18000mi before the tests started to show that the oil was breaking down:

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

Junkyard_Dog wrote:

Nashco wrote: The factory has done lots of testing to determine the proper time to change your oil for your specific engine, car, etc. Why ignore it? Bryce

Because that number has nothing to do with protecting your engine. It has everything to do with keeping cost of ownership low and, in the case of factory provided services, keeping the manufacturer's outlay for servicing to a bare minimum. Why else would oil changes go from 5000 miles to 7500 miles with zero changes to the vehicle? Why would a vehicle that holds 9 quarts of oil and has a tolerance of burning 1 quart every thousand miles have a 15000 mile interval? Why are more and more transmissions and differentials "fill for life" with no services at all? I'm an ASE master technician. I work for a high end manufacturer with a history of oil problems. I've seen and heard it all from the oil salesmen to the vehicle makers to the Jiffy Lube techs. I change my oil every 3000 miles. 5000 in the vehicles that use synthetic. Take that however you want to. I figure a couple hundred dollars a year for some "extra" oil changes is cheaper than a couple thousand if I blow something up, and thats figuring my labor is free.

That number DOES protect your engine because, as your second statement says, it has to do with keeping warranty numbers in check. If you're not protecting the engine, warranty claims jump. The factory does LOTS of oil sample testing during development. Perhaps you, as an ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN, didn't see any changes to the vehicle, but that doesn't mean nothing changed. For example, say the company has been doing oil sampling and at the time of release they're still a bit nervous about oil life, so they go with 8k intervals. After the engine/car has been out for a year or two, they've had time to do more sampling and have a known track record of warranty numbers. Based on that, they know if they should adjust or not.

Pretend they've had zero changes, samples still show borderline results, but warranty numbers are good...in that case, they are more confident and up the interval from 8k miles to 10k miles in the next model year literature. This enhances perceived value for people buying the car after it's been out for a couple of years.

Pretend they've changed the cam bearing supplier/part number because of some issues they were having with X in the oil. The new oil samples show they have much better oil quality, so the literature changes for the next model year even though the cam bearings were changed over immediately. The new bearings are the EXACT same dimensions as the old ones and are 100% interchangeable, and because oil change intervals were conservative the warranty issues were never a problem. The company never releases a new part number, so people outside the company don't see any changes except for extended intervals. Warranty claims remain low, as they were, despite the increased interval. This enhances perceived value for people buying the car, as above.

These are just two examples of why you, ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN, would see the interval change even though there has been no change to the car/engine (that you know of). I could come up with a dozen more reasons, this is just to help you wrap your head around stuff that would happen internal to the company without you knowing about it.

As far as cars burning 1 quart every 1000 miles and needing services every 15k miles, I'm not sure how those are linked. You're still supposed to add oil in between services. I won't get into what an acceptable burn rate is, but how much oil is burned does not indicate the quality of the oil. As far as gearboxes having "lifetime" fills, that's largely due to better manufacturing that existed years ago. Today, the amount of "break in" that occurs and the amount of metal shavings in an assembly is significantly lower than in the past. Sure, you'd still be a sucker not to change it out after 100-200k miles, but you're definitely good for a long while.

I'm a big fan of the "oil life" indicator that the Saturn has (as well as lots of GMs for a long time now). They have formulas they've established from testing, warranty, and just general experience after building millions and millions of cars to tell you how used up the oil is. If you drive in mild climates on long highway trips, the oil lasts a really long time. If you drive in very extreme climates and beat the hell out of the car, the oil doesn't last very long. Time is factored in as well. It takes the guess work out for the average person, and all but the most extreme track cars can live life by that indicator with no worries.

Junkyard Dog...if you haven't before, perhaps you should do some oil sampling for a while on one of your machines. You learn a LOT about the car and oil in general, and in your case the extended intervals (when you learn your oil is a long way from used up) might even pay for the sampling service.

Bryce

Nashco wrote: That number DOES protect your engine because, as your second statement says, it has to do with keeping warranty numbers in check. If you're not protecting the engine, warranty claims jump. The factory does LOTS of oil sample testing during development. Perhaps you, as an ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN, didn't see any changes to the vehicle, but that doesn't mean nothing changed. For example, say the company has been doing oil sampling and at the time of release they're still a bit nervous about oil life, so they go with 8k intervals. After the engine/car has been out for a year or two, they've had time to do more sampling and have a known track record of warranty numbers. Based on that, they know if they should adjust or not.....These are just two examples of why you, ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN, would see the interval change even though there has been no change to the car/engine (that you know of). I could come up with a dozen more reasons, this is just to help you wrap your head around stuff that would happen internal to the company without you knowing about it.

Perhaps I should have mentioned That when I worked at the shop closest to he main training facility for this company in the USA, I had access to the engineers on a face to face basis. They confirmed nothing had been changed and that it was done to save on published and warranty costs. Their studies showed the extended intervals did little to effect the engines during the warranty period. They don't last to 150k+ like they used to, but thats not the manufacturers problem.

Nashco wrote: As far as cars burning 1 quart every 1000 miles and needing services every 15k miles, I'm not sure how those are linked. You're still supposed to add oil in between services. I won't get into what an acceptable burn rate is, but how much oil is burned does not indicate the quality of the oil. As far as gearboxes having "lifetime" fills, that's largely due to better manufacturing that existed years ago. Today, the amount of "break in" that occurs and the amount of metal shavings in an assembly is significantly lower than in the past. Sure, you'd still be a sucker not to change it out after 100-200k miles, but you're definitely good for a long while.

Try explaining that to the "sucker" that has to shell out for a new transmission. Sure we tried to tell them a service was due, but to them if its not in the manual we must be trying to rob them. The failure rate on a certain ZF transmission is almost exactly at 125k. Ask me how I know.

Nashco wrote: Junkyard Dog...if you haven't before, perhaps you should do some oil sampling for a while on one of your machines. You learn a LOT about the car and oil in general, and in your case the extended intervals (when you learn your oil is a long way from used up) might even pay for the sampling service. Bryce

I could be wrong but something tells me that for the cost and trouble of all that testing I could just do another oil change or two and be out ahead. "Used up" and "should be changed" can be two different things. Especially if you can't always perform your services like clockwork. Its nice to have a little cushion if you have to wait a week or two (+/-1000 miles in the case of my 91 Volvo).

I can see you don't put much faith in ASE certifications. Neither do I, but it seems to impress people. Anybody with an average IQ and decent test taking skills can be certified. I've seen guys with no ASEs fix and fabricate anything. I've seen masters who couldn't turn a wrench to save their lives. On the other hand an old friend is an engineer at a famous fuel pump maker and he can't even set up the diff in his Chevelle. Judging by your Fiero, you don't have that problem.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: I can see you don't put much faith in ASE certifications. Neither do I, but it seems to impress people. Anybody with an average IQ and decent test taking skills can be certified. I've seen guys with no ASEs fix and fabricate anything. I've seen masters who couldn't turn a wrench to save their lives. On the other hand an old friend is an engineer at a famous fuel pump maker and he can't even set up the diff in his Chevelle. Judging by your Fiero, you don't have that problem.

You got it. I always chuckle when people say they're ASE certified...that just means you can take a test, same thing with somebody who got a degree in engineering. Knowing "stuff" and being certified are two very different things.

If you've never had oil samples done, you'd probably be surprised how cheap it is. If you do three $20 samples and determine that for your typical driving, you could extend your 5k synthetic change out to 10k, you'd probably come out on top in filter/oil costs after a couple of years. Of course, if you're anything like me, that would be a moot point because you'll have some other car in two years anyway.

Bryce

Nashco wrote: Of course, if you're anything like me, that would be a moot point because you'll have 10 other cars in two years anyway. Bryce

Fixed

I'd be interested to see how the synthetic oil holds up in my 221k mile Turbo Volvo vs. my new 30k mile Miata. Not enough to pay for it mind you, but still interested

Ok, quick question. Silly it may be, but I am ignorant. What harm if any can come from changing oil too often, aside from the obvious waste of money?

I change the oil (Valvaline extended life) in my 220k Impreza twice a year, it uses ~1 qt every 4k mi .... change the Amsoil in my 01 Integra ( 2500mi/yr ) twice each year, and in my 91 CRX auto-x (25-30/yr and 3 - 5 track days /yr) twice each yr (Amsoil) and maybe more often if a track day is coming up and it's been 3 - 4 mos. since the last.... any thoughts...

I wonder whether we are being told the true facts about oil change intervals and warming up the car in the morning. Governments want as little pollution as possible, so with the collaboration of the car manufacturers, they give us the least oil change intervals compatible with reasonable engine life. As far as warming up the car in the morning is concerned, it's the same story. Why release burned gasses into the atmosphere if they are not going to be converted into kinetic movement right away?Until the engine reaches normal operating temperature, tolerances are not ideal, so if one stresses it to move, one causes unnecessary damage to the moving parts of the engine . On the previous subject of oil changes, I know oil technology has come a long way since the 80's. I don't however believe for a moment that an oil which is subjected to a lot of stresses,ie, cold starts, idling in traffic highway motoring ,spirited driving, overreving sometimes, can last that long. In the second world war the British were using synthetic oils (too expensive then to have been used by the public) on their speedfire fighter plane engines. standard procedure was to warm the engine before take-off. Anyway I allways warm up my cars in the morning rain or shine, allways change oil and filter every 2000 miles and I have never ever suffered any mechanical faillure or oil burning. Only routine maintenance and the odd water pump. Please give me your thoughts on these two subjects.

In my country I drive the car up the curb near a rain water drain and unscrew the oil plug. oil gets into the drain, then I put a screwdriver through the filter and dump that into the drain after i have raised the grill of the drain. easy ain't it ? more time left for the beeeeeeer.

Remind me not to eat the fish next time I visit.

It doesn't matter,it's farmed fish you are eating. anyway next time you are around give me a buzz and i'll show you my cars

I change my Amsoil in both of my vehicles once a year, 8-9 thousand miles. Both were purchased new and now have app 70K miles each.
The ZX2 gets run on track days and as a daily driver. The Liberty tows the ZX2 and trailer to the track days and is my primary driver in the winter. Both engines are clean, use no oil between changes and run like new, maybe better.

kyproset; Warming an airplane engine is a whole different thing compared to a car. The car warms up faster by driving it and if it stalls you just pull over to the curb.

About 30 years ago I decided that I'd never remember to change the oil every 3K while I was driving over 100miles per day so I switched to 5K intervals for convenience. I've driven over 500,000 miles since then, in various cars & trucks & never had an oil related failure.

It might be interesting to compare automotive stuff with aviation. I fly C-130's and our engine configuration is a turbine engine (ball bearings on a shaft) sending power through a shaft to a massive gearbox. Our mech's don't change the oil until we get a couple of "chip" lights. I'm sure there's some thousands of hours that we're allowed to fly with the same oil, but it's interesting that it uses what I assume to be a similar method to modern cars that give you a "count down" to an oil change by measuring continuity in the oil. That's got to be the most effective method purely because it gives some idea as to the actual condition of the engine instead of relying upon some random "mileage" for oil changes. I'd be interested to know if these modern oil change countdowns they have in cars are anything but a continuity meter.

that is an interesting idea. So does oil lose continuity as it ages.. or does it go up as it picks up small bits of metal?