Cleetus McFarland is going to get somebody killed...

In reply to alfadriver :

"I only accept 20% risk."

I wonder how many of us complaining about the lack of safety of these modified Panthers willingly operate vehicles without crumple zones, airbags, collapsible steering columns, or even 3 point safety belts on public roads or in aggressive driving situations.

It's fine to point out how important safety devices are, and when they're not properly applied. But if you don't have a problem driving (or watching others drive), or hauling your family around in vintage stuff with way less safety engineered into the platform then the outrage and indignation here seems kind of silly and hypocritical to me. If you're not doing everything in your power to make your old vehicle as safe as possible, then aren't you guilty of the same thing as Cleetus?

STM317 said:

I wonder how many of us complaining about the lack of safety of these modified Panthers willingly operate vehicles without crumple zones, airbags, collapsible steering columns, or even 3 point safety belts on public roads or in aggressive driving situations.

It's fine to point out how important safety devices are, and when they're not properly applied. But if you don't have a problem driving (or watching others drive), or hauling your family around in vintage stuff with way less safety engineered into the platform then the outrage and indignation here seems kind of silly and hypocritical to me. If you're not doing everything in your power to make your old vehicle as safe as possible, then aren't you guilty of the same thing as Cleetus?

Funny you pointed this out; when I saw it my thought was my drive to work is more frightening than that (Nevada is 6th in the nation for road rage).

ProDarwin said:

Its great that he is making positive safety improvements.

Its negligent not to do some basic research into proper safety design before racing.

 

He needs to be more proactive, less reactive.

This is the part that really bugs me. Yes it's good that he's sorry and will do better. But like, the safety tech already existed and people already paid for it. Why be willfully ignorant and then apologize later? "Whoops I didn't know" rings pretty hollow for things that have existed for decades. 

Did Bristol Speedway just take his money and insurance card and brush their hands off when they walked, away tossing him the keys, et.al.?

Doubt it.

Pretty sure they provided a lot of services with the rental.

There is no way they did not look at some aspects of safety.

In reply to STM317 :

I actively avoid heavy traffic in general and larger vehicles in particular.  I recognize that when binky hausfrau in his SUV or pickup hits me I will be reddish brown paste.  No pretense that everything will be safe, AND no overarching reason to engage in risky situations.

I also don't have a berking net riveted over the window hole to keep me trapped in the car.  Seat belts, door bars, etc are as designed by tort-conscious OEMs, not a SWAG guess.

Apexcarver said:

alfadriver said:

Was going to reply, but I don't want to be seen as political. Sorry that I'm not interested in seeing people unknowingly risk their lives. 

+1,  There are those who view saving people from their own (usually ignorant or misinformed) decisions as overreach, but I respectfully disagree. Saving lives or saving people from injury is a worthwhile pursuit. Its not a political statement that my personal morals place that as a worthwhile pursuit.  (and yes, morals can AND SHOULD be decoupled from politics and religion in this context) 

In the bloody days of Formula One, they had what we would consider to be a cavalier attitude about safety... but as one driver put it, it wasn't that long ago that everyone was shooting at each other or bombing each others' houses, so really it wasn't all that unsafe in comparison.

Trivia... John Fitch based his Fitch Barrier safety barrels off of the sand filled fuel cans he used to use to keep his tent from getting shot up.

Byrneon27 said:

Any involvement in motorsport at any level is watching people KNOWINGLY risk their lives. Not one person on this or any other racetrack is ignorant of what they're doing. 

If this were true, there would be no autosport-related lawsuits, but we know better.

Deleted my own work because I realized that I'm not going to be able to contribute in a thoughtful manner. 

 

kb58 said:

Byrneon27 said:

Any involvement in motorsport at any level is watching people KNOWINGLY risk their lives. Not one person on this or any other racetrack is ignorant of what they're doing. 

If this were true, there would be no autosport-related lawsuits, but we know better.

I know tow people who've sued........................it was purely a case of being in a monetary bind. They really shouldn't have been racing given that circumstance but  addictions tend to overrule common sense. I'm guilty as charged as well; I was road racing motorcycles and had no health insurance.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I'm not suggesting the cars weren't flawed. I'm just saying that even in their flawed conditions, there's a decent chance that they were safer than the toys that a lot of us drive on a regular basis. It's easy to point out other people's flaws or oversights, but many of us ignore similar concerns with our own stuff.

In reply to STM317 :

I bought a 128i convertible as my fun family toy, rather than a vintage convertible that I'd much rather have, specifically because of how dramatically improved it is from a safety standpoint.

Our "cheap" endurance racecar build is sparing no expense on safety for similar reasons.

8 pages of agonizing about the potential danger to adults none of you are personally connected to, doing an event of their own free will. I can assure you none of them are worried about you. 

In reply to STM317 :

OTOH this is also the forum where people wish for roll cages, suits, harnesses, and HANS for track days, because they have seen or experienced first hand how things can go sideways in a hurry.

"Safety rules are written in blood"

I get the angle of personal responsibility.  But there is also the angle of safety theater, where people who are not really knowledgeable enough of the risks decide to take risks they were not aware of because someone else told them it was safe.  THAT is the part that sticks in the craw.  It would be like, say, giving someone a raincoat and telling them it was safe to go into a high radiation environment.  

They used to sell soft shelled foam bike helmets, too.  The kind that can grip the pavement if you slide on it.

In reply to Driven5 :

Yup! I completely understand that approach. I'm planning a mid 60s build as a fair weather street cruiser, and I'm trying to convince myself that with enough upgrades to suspension, brakes, tires, fuel system, 3pt belts for everybody and chassis stiffening that it won't be a total death trap for the family. But I also know that I'm still likely to be extra alert when I'm driving it, and won't push it as far or as often as I might in a vehicle with better safety gear.

STM317 said:

I wonder how many of us complaining about the lack of safety of these modified Panthers willingly operate vehicles without crumple zones, airbags, collapsible steering columns, or even 3 point safety belts on public roads or in aggressive driving situations.

It's fine to point out how important safety devices are, and when they're not properly applied. But if you don't have a problem driving (or watching others drive), or hauling your family around in vintage stuff with way less safety engineered into the platform then the outrage and indignation here seems kind of silly and hypocritical to me. If you're not doing everything in your power to make your old vehicle as safe as possible, then aren't you guilty of the same thing as Cleetus?

I don't know about you, but I don't watch the commute for entertainment. 

In reply to alfadriver :

But you do drive unsafe stuff for entertainment...in real life. How do you think the level of crash safety between those cars, as prepared compares with an old Alfa that's street driven? It's fine to not enjoy watching stuff like that, or avoid increasing the profile of individuals that do unsafe things. But taking that stand loses some impact when you then go out and jump into an old car/truck with even less safety equipment than the cars discussed here, and take risks with your own safety.

It's fine if you don't watch the guy's channel or support many of those things. I'm with you there. I just think there are some people here throwing stones while living in glass houses. A whole lot of us have a blindspot when it comes to the safety of our own stuff and what the actual risks and potential outcomes might be for the way we use it.

Threads like these, politics, and divorces have taught me that if you don't pick a side, one will be assigned to you. 

This is basically stock car enduro racing....something i have done off and on for 20 years..now my cars have always had 4 point with door bars nascar style at a minimum but some tracks dont even require a cage for enduro cars sometimes only a b post and vertical spreader behind driver is requried and some tracks nothing.

The issue here is Bristol is fast even in a crown vic..those safety standards aint gonna cut it. Back in the day the enduros we ran on asphalt the track was wet down usually with water trucks in the infield giving it a spary or even tracks like Altmont had a sprayer system around the outside. It added to the show and kept the speeds down as these event were not about speed so much as just surviving the mayhem and keeping your car moving.

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

8 pages of agonizing about the potential danger to adults none of you are personally connected to, doing an event of their own free will. I can assure you none of them are worried about you. 

And yet, if and when one of them sues the track, the ramifications can indeed affect us through higher track fees, hence the "connection."

STM317 said:

I wonder how many of us complaining about the lack of safety of these modified Panthers willingly operate vehicles without crumple zones, airbags, collapsible steering columns, or even 3 point safety belts on public roads or in aggressive driving situations.

It's fine to point out how important safety devices are, and when they're not properly applied. But if you don't have a problem driving (or watching others drive), or hauling your family around in vintage stuff with way less safety engineered into the platform then the outrage and indignation here seems kind of silly and hypocritical to me. If you're not doing everything in your power to make your old vehicle as safe as possible, then aren't you guilty of the same thing as Cleetus?

All fair points, but in another conversation. While this thread has among other things veered towards personal responsibility, the main issue is the sheer number of people, followers not only of Cleetus but of all the other Youtubers, that will watch it, and think that this level of safety 'devices' is actually safe.

It is one thing to take an informed decision while open to amending things after discussion with other experienced individuals like most of us in this forum do, and another to believe you are doing the right thing while misinformed and oblivious to the actual danger when things go wrong. Not everybody knows enough about cars, crumble zones and personal safety, but a lot of them might be inspired by one of those shows and seriously hurting themselves AND the sport.

Yes, people should research more and take informed decisions. Very few teenagers do or ever did. Hence, in my eyes, the danger of promoting that mentality for monetary gain.

In reply to Piguin :

So you're saying people are too ignorant to make their own decisions, so we will make them?

It's a terrible argument and its the same as "censor him because other people (not me) are too dumb to realize his ideas are bad." Like I said earlier if someone chooses a dumb hero and is to ignorant to realize his ideas are dumb it's on them.

I mean I don't like most people and think they're dumb, but atleast I think they are smart enough to make their own decisions.

I think when you say how bad it is about being misinformed and oblivious to danger, you sure do put yourself up on a high horse. I take it that means you haven't ever done anything ignorantly, or that you are so well informed you can forsee all potential hazards.

I think in reality many people on here like to stand on their soap box preaching about how unsafe this was, but will not look inwards about decisions they've made, like on public roads surrounded by unwilling participants, or that motorsports on all levels is dangerous and we still love it 

In reply to STM317 :

I see what you are suggesting, but at least I know and understand the risks.  So I can mitigate the risks- like taking empty roads and carrying a fire extinguisher, or even adding a good restraint system. Let alone how I drive around other drivers. 
 

I really don't think some of these participants do. Like that poor person who got burned really badly when the cooling system failed. 

Piguin said:

STM317 said:

I wonder how many of us complaining about the lack of safety of these modified Panthers willingly operate vehicles without crumple zones, airbags, collapsible steering columns, or even 3 point safety belts on public roads or in aggressive driving situations.

It's fine to point out how important safety devices are, and when they're not properly applied. But if you don't have a problem driving (or watching others drive), or hauling your family around in vintage stuff with way less safety engineered into the platform then the outrage and indignation here seems kind of silly and hypocritical to me. If you're not doing everything in your power to make your old vehicle as safe as possible, then aren't you guilty of the same thing as Cleetus?

All fair points, but in another conversation. While this thread has among other things veered towards personal responsibility, the main issue is the sheer number of people, followers not only of Cleetus but of all the other Youtubers, that will watch it, and think that this level of safety 'devices' is actually safe.

It is one thing to take an informed decision while open to amending things after discussion with other experienced individuals like most of us in this forum do, and another to believe you are doing the right thing while misinformed and oblivious to the actual danger when things go wrong. Not everybody knows enough about cars, crumble zones and personal safety, but a lot of them might be inspired by one of those shows and seriously hurting themselves AND the sport.

Yes, people should research more and take informed decisions. Very few teenagers do or ever did. Hence, in my eyes, the danger of promoting that mentality for monetary gain.

Agreed. But wouldn't most of those easily influenced viewers also see his follow up video where he admits to making some mistakes and talks about why they were bad ideas or implementation? If his high profile can be bad when it spreads bad info, then can't it also be good when he admits to screw ups and educates his many followers as to why? People make mistakes. Cleetus seems to have realized at least some of the mistakes he made and seems likely to have learned from them.

It's fine to point out the mistakes, but I'm not going to grill him or the participants too much considering what I willingly climb into on a regular basis to do battle with tired, overstressed, distracted drivers in 5k lb tanks.

Hey, good on him for admitting mistakes and yeah, I am also sure that the cost per vehicle of prep comes into play.  Things get very different very quickly as speeds increase. Forces involved increase exponentially with speed. 

There's more to do for the big tracks than fixing the window nets.