What are your opinions on cloning a higher-spec model? Porche RS's and E30 M3's come to mind. GTR's to GTR V-Spec, etc. I don't mean to include replicas like Cobra's and 356 kit cars (the quality varies too widely). I mean using genuine parts to recreate a factory spec of a more desirable model. When is this OK? When is it frowned on? What kind of value would you assign to it? Same as the base model it's based on? Same as the actual thing? More, because the original ones are so worn out that there's little point to own one? The car plus the sum of the parts? Less because it's been modified from it's original state?
If you are doing it because you want but couldn't find/afford the specific one you wanted and plan to fully disclose that it's a clone in the event that you do sell, sure. As far as value, it probably hurts it because it's the same as any other modified example. An E30 M3 clone is an interesting thought because the work and cost to turn an a 3 series 2 door into an M3 is a pretty big commitment. I'm sure S14 engines aren't growing on trees and doing the wide body correctly is pretty invasive and irreversible.
Maybe something more like the 924 Carrera GTR. Sure it wouldn't be cheap or easy to copy, but they only built 19 of them apparently.
If you want to sit at a car show and pass it off as the real thing, then I have a problem with it. If you just want a better faster version of the car you have, then go for it. Take the TR7 and TR8 for instance. Who would want a 4 cylinder TR7 when you know a TR8 exists? Who would want a stock TR8 when you know with a few mods, the car can really come alive? If you want a really fast TR8, then why start with an expensive 8 in the first place? Most of the unique TR8 parts are going to be replaced with go fast aftermarket parts anyway, so start with a TR7 and build something special. Then go out and outrun just about anything you come across. Done. TR7 with a V8. Call it whatever you want.
It's OK at all times and it's frowned upon when one has a stick up his butt. Value, similar to any other modded car - same or less to most people, more to the racing crowd.
Sometimes you can end up with a better-performing car than the higher spec model - my AE92 SR5 now has the GTS performance goodies in it, but not the super-heavy GTS seats or extra GTS sound deadening.
I saw a Craigslist ad with what appeared to be an E36 M3 (car!).
The ad repeatedly said this was NOT an M3 but just had replica parts all over it.
I shouldn’t be impressed but this was a Craigslist ad remember...
As long as your honest about it I see no issue. Just don't try to pass it off as the real one
Just watch auctions like Barrett Jackson or Mecum and you'll see them all the time with '60s muscle cars. They call them "recreations" or "tributes". Someone takes what was born as a base 6 cyl '69 Camaro and turns it into a Yenko or whatever. Usually sells for more than it would have if it had still been a base 6 cylinder model, but far less than the real deal.
I'm really not a '60s muscle car guy in the first place, they kind of bore me. However, while I'm OK doing a tribute car, I don't know I agree with what the announcers always say about them. "Well, it was just a plane jane 6 cyl base model car, so no harm no foul". I dunno...I think it's refreshing to see a well preserved base model car.
Do what you will but don’t pass it off as anything other than what it is especially when it comes time to sell it.
I like clones especially when the owners of real “real” ones get all high brow about it. It is just a car. In some cases clones are better. A clone RSR lightweight you can take to the track and thrash it with basically zero depreciation and comparatively little risk.
In the Alfa world, you see recreations of the GTAm all the time. And nobody minds. (heck, way back 13 years ago, my second Challenge car was a GT Jr that I was going to make look like a wide body GTA/GTAm. such dreams)
They don't hold the same value as a GTAm, but they are accepted.
Also, the old Veloce's- there are many "ab-Normale" cars out there- which are the base cars brought to Veloce specs. Again, nobody minds people that do this, but they are not valued anywhere near a real Veloce. Thankfully, there are some real tough things to replicate that can tell the difference between the cars.
For GTA's- there are some look a-likes out there, but to actually make a GTA is virtually impossible, unless you have access to the original body stampings so you can stamp the original body out of aluminum.... It's possible, but the cost to actually do it would be tough to swallow, even for such a valuable car.
The only Alfa that I'm aware of where there are replicas that you need to careful about are the Giulietta SZ. And I almost encountered one in person. Again, they are pretty easy to tell apart from the real ones. I kind of regret not going in person to look at one that we barely could have afforded.
The cost to recreate an E30 M3, properly, it would probably be easier to drop $50k on a clean one and move on.
Strut tube/knuckle I think are NLA, you can use the E36 stuff but it takes some extra geometry correction. Not only are the fenders different, but the rear glass to trunk transition is different.
S14s can still be purchased and places like VAC Motorsports will build you a SCREAMING punched out, 2.7L version of the S14, I suspect that probably approaches the price of a new Miata.
That said, if I had $500k laying around, I'd love to have Singer build me a '73 RS clone. But that isn't happening unless I win the lottery and I don't buy tickets so.
Just call it what it really is and do what you want with your car. Don't expect the value to go up by cloning.
My brother went to a big car show in Michigan a few years ago and there were tons of corvettes. I don't remember. Model or year but apparently GM only produced 10 cars with a specific package but somehow there were 15 corvettes all claiming numbers matching to this specific special package. Each of there customs signs said 1 of 10 cars.
Another example, I don't often believe the owners anymore when I see yenko cameros or ss cars anymore at shows. Too many clones.
I upgraded my mother's Vauxhall Viva HA Standard to a Deluxe. Nobody noticed though.
I don't have an issue with it as long as the car is not passed off as the real deal. It gets real problematic (and is a criminal offense) when people start swapping VIN plates.
Driven5
SuperDork
12/19/18 9:43 a.m.
Agreed that it's generally 'ok' as long as it's not passed off as original. I'd say that if done 'right' it will add value over the standard car, or typical aftermarket modified car, but never be worth what an original factory trim is...If done 'right' though, I would think that it would typically (car dependent) also still add less value than it costs to do the conversion. So I'd only plan on doing it if you're doing it for you, and not for resale.
My Mustang is slowly becoming a Fauxbra, not because I'm trying to, it's just that the cobra parts bolt right on and are a cheap upgrade.
FieroReinke said:
Just call it what it really is and do what you want with your car. Don't expect the value to go up by cloning.
My brother went to a big car show in Michigan a few years ago and there were tons of corvettes. I don't remember. Model or year but apparently GM only produced 10 cars with a specific package but somehow there were 15 corvettes all claiming numbers matching to this specific special package. Each of there customs signs said 1 of 10 cars.
Another example, I don't often believe the owners anymore when I see yenko cameros or ss cars anymore at shows. Too many clones.
There is some racing Porche (maybe a 917?) that is famous for this. There are currently more cars claiming to be original than were ever made. My understanding is that it came to be because when one was wrecked it would get parted out. Eventually the significant parts were used as the basis of a restoration, and thus more than one car is claiming the original build number.
I think about 3rd gen f-bodies too much. So I just thought of Detroit speed's "DSE-Z". I don't believe those guys have ever claimed that car is or was anything but an RS. But everyone else looks at it and says IROC-Z. Of course nothing on that car has been left untouched and its way past stock IROC-Z performance.
I'm with the others here. As long as it's not passed off as the real thing, I'm fine with it. I've been seeing this with e36's lately with M3 bumpers and s52 but 325/8 VINs. I'm not sure if these are cars people just wanted to cut their teeth on as projects since I hear BMWs are like legos, or if they're original owners that wanted to refresh and decided to upgrade while they were at it.
I dont see a problem with it, its your car after all, but its kinda like when kit car owners try to pass it off as the real thing.....sort of cheesy.
Like....one time my mom saw a Shelby Cobra kit car at the resort she worked at. Guy swore up and down it was an original but said stuff like " original, Shelby Charles made it" and that it had a "prototype 350 fuel injected turbo engine" in it. He was also giving it to his daughter as her first car. How likely do you think that it was real?
I guess the big question is how far do you want to take it? As far as the C5 Corvette is concerned, is someone going to take the thinner glass from the Z06 and put it in an FRC to make a clone? Probably not. But they will definitely do Z06 badges and wheels. How far will someone go to clone an Integra Type R?
I’m in the process of kinda cloning a RUF RGT with my 996. They only imported 17 of them to the US. I’ve seen photos of a blue one, yellow one, ugly metallic orange one (with ronald mcdonald interior), a silver one, a silver vert and a silver clone. It’s rare and I can afford one. RUF did it because you couldn’t get a GT3 in the US until 2004. As a naturally aspirated RUF it’s also a bit more rare.
I just love what RUF does to their cars. I’m going to do what I can slowly but surely. Hopefully one day I can find a used GT3 engine or have an m96 built to 3.8L by Raby. That and RUF brakes are the most expensive parts. I may even do the gage conversion. I’m going to leave Carrera on my decklid or put 996 on there and do zero RUF emblems unless I can get one of those sexy new RUF crests. I’ve bought a few things from then to date and they sure are a pleasant lot. They remind me of Brian Goodwin’s group or the guys at Flyin Miata. Honestly when it comes to working on cars as a hobby, the people at the aftermarket companies make all the difference. RUF sent me a handwritten thank you note and some extra RUF mementos on even the smallest of orders.
I made a 4-dr Elantra GT in 02..... just in time for them to make a 4-dr GT from the factory in 03. I was not pleased.
