Clutchless Endurance Racing Transmissions

chaparral said:

Getrag DDCT in a Focus or Fiesta works well in the mountains. 

Aren't these the ones that suffered crazy amounts of failures/recalls?

z31maniac said:

chaparral said:

Getrag DDCT in a Focus or Fiesta works well in the mountains. 

Aren't these the ones that suffered crazy amounts of failures/recalls?

As it turns out, most Americans with really bad driving habits do not mesh well with a dry clutch transmission.  The clutch gets all grabby and shuddery and weird after people creep forward 2-3 times at every red light.

An aside, the vast majority of dual clutch transmissions have internal wet clutches, that handle slippage better.  The Ford unit is the only dry clutch I am aware of.  An aside to the aside, Honda got around the problem by using a torque converter between the engine and trans.

Also the TCMs are problematic, either losing the ability to engage one of the clutch actuators or losing the ability to engage the starter (TCM has final starter authority).  Last I heard they were on intergalactic backorder and no estimated time for more TCMs to be produced.

In reply to z31maniac :

Don't forget the multiple (global) class-action lawsuit settlements and government investigations. Despite some Ford engineers initially trying to tow the corporate line and defend the indefensible, the PowerE36 M3 transmission was a steaming pile of garbage.

Driven5 said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Don't forget the multiple global class-action lawsuits, settlements, and government investigations. Despite Ford employees initially trying to stick their head in the sand about it and tow the company line, the PowerE36 M3 transmission was a steaming pile of garbage.

Ok, so I was remembering the right one. A woman I worked with (when we were still in the office), bought a Focus and had to constantly take it to the dealer for X this was ~3.5-4 years ago.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

z31maniac said:

chaparral said:

Getrag DDCT in a Focus or Fiesta works well in the mountains. 

Aren't these the ones that suffered crazy amounts of failures/recalls?

As it turns out, most Americans with really bad driving habits do not mesh well with a dry clutch transmission.  The clutch gets all grabby and shuddery and weird after people creep forward 2-3 times at every red light.

An aside, the vast majority of dual clutch transmissions have internal wet clutches, that handle slippage better.  The Ford unit is the only dry clutch I am aware of.  An aside to the aside, Honda got around the problem by using a torque converter between the engine and trans.

Also the TCMs are problematic, either losing the ability to engage one of the clutch actuators or losing the ability to engage the starter (TCM has final starter authority).  Last I heard they were on intergalactic backorder and no estimated time for more TCMs to be produced.

To be fair, the DCT in my 135i didn't care for city driving either. Sport mode and your out having fun, it was brilliant. Normal mode and just puttering around town, it seemed like a bucking Bronco angry you weren't letting it loose. 

In reply to z31maniac :

Meanwhile, the PowerE36 M3 in the  Focus I drove years ago couldn't even drive decently on the highway. LOL

z31maniac said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

z31maniac said:

chaparral said:

Getrag DDCT in a Focus or Fiesta works well in the mountains. 

Aren't these the ones that suffered crazy amounts of failures/recalls?

As it turns out, most Americans with really bad driving habits do not mesh well with a dry clutch transmission.  The clutch gets all grabby and shuddery and weird after people creep forward 2-3 times at every red light.

An aside, the vast majority of dual clutch transmissions have internal wet clutches, that handle slippage better.  The Ford unit is the only dry clutch I am aware of.  An aside to the aside, Honda got around the problem by using a torque converter between the engine and trans.

Also the TCMs are problematic, either losing the ability to engage one of the clutch actuators or losing the ability to engage the starter (TCM has final starter authority).  Last I heard they were on intergalactic backorder and no estimated time for more TCMs to be produced.

To be fair, the DCT in my 135i didn't care for city driving either. Sport mode and your out having fun, it was brilliant. Normal mode and just puttering around town, it seemed like a bucking Bronco angry you weren't letting it loose. 

Whoa whoa whoa.  Which years of 135i had a twin clutch trans?

Ever since riding in Patrick's R32, I seem to want turbocharged straight six in my life, and I was finding that I could buy a 135i for a fair bit less than a Skyline, but the only manual transmissions were convertibles.

(Posted from my turbocharged five cylinder car... well, one of my turbocharged five cylinder cars... nothing is ever enough  )

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I'm pretty sure that the N55 cars all had a DCT.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

z31maniac said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

z31maniac said:

chaparral said:

Getrag DDCT in a Focus or Fiesta works well in the mountains. 

Aren't these the ones that suffered crazy amounts of failures/recalls?

As it turns out, most Americans with really bad driving habits do not mesh well with a dry clutch transmission.  The clutch gets all grabby and shuddery and weird after people creep forward 2-3 times at every red light.

An aside, the vast majority of dual clutch transmissions have internal wet clutches, that handle slippage better.  The Ford unit is the only dry clutch I am aware of.  An aside to the aside, Honda got around the problem by using a torque converter between the engine and trans.

Also the TCMs are problematic, either losing the ability to engage one of the clutch actuators or losing the ability to engage the starter (TCM has final starter authority).  Last I heard they were on intergalactic backorder and no estimated time for more TCMs to be produced.

To be fair, the DCT in my 135i didn't care for city driving either. Sport mode and your out having fun, it was brilliant. Normal mode and just puttering around town, it seemed like a bucking Bronco angry you weren't letting it loose. 

Whoa whoa whoa.  Which years of 135i had a twin clutch trans?

Ever since riding in Patrick's R32, I seem to want turbocharged straight six in my life, and I was finding that I could buy a 135i for a fair bit less than a Skyline, but the only manual transmissions were convertibles.

(Posted from my turbocharged five cylinder car... well, one of my turbocharged five cylinder cars... nothing is ever enough  )

Like Driven5 said, the 2011-2013 N55 cars all had the 7-speed DCT if you didn't get a manual. 

But even with Pilot Super Sports, from idle the car wouldn't really hook until 3rd on the street since it makes all it's tq from basically 1500-5200 rpms. Basically almost by the time you have your foot to the floor it's moving and in full boost/full tq. I think a tune liberates maybe 25-30hp up top but something like 90ft/lbs all through the midrange. I never bothered with a tune, plenty quick stock.

The downfall of the E82 is the inability to fit wider tires under the stock fenders. 215/245 stock, I think you could squeeze 235/255 under the car, 265 was possible in the back with a cut/roll IIRC. It's been a few years since I got rid of it.

Most Getrag DDCT failures were due to stop-and-go / urban driving where drivers treated the dry clutches like torque converters. Picture someone trying to parallel park on a hill, with a clutch automatically controlled to never let them roll the "wrong way" or stall. 

I don't know whether they're natively-suitable for track use, but both the Focus and Fiesta would make good cheap-car-enduro cars otherwise and I really liked the automatic Fiesta I drove the entire length of West Virginia on back roads. 

z31maniac said:

chaparral said:

Getrag DDCT in a Focus or Fiesta works well in the mountains. 

Aren't these the ones that suffered crazy amounts of failures/recalls?

I believe so.  My dad's focus was scraped for this.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

Yes. They're better suited to an application without creeping.

Driven5 said:

I've been ruminating on this a bit lately. Let's say that you wanted to build a build a budget endurance racecar, and needed it to be clutch-pedal-less. FWD vs RWD layout does not matter for the purposes of this discussion, but figure on putting at least 200whp through it.

First and most preferred are dual-clutch and automated-manual gearboxes. Sporty ones are only available from select 'newer' cars, generally making them more expensive, and/or are generally attached to less than desirable engines for budget endurance racing.

Next and least preferred are standard automatic transmissions. Pretty much any and every thing has one. Most seem to lack both the durability to handle endurance racing abuse, as well as the drivability of a clutched transmission due to the torque converter set to unlock with heavy throttle use. There are a few transmissions from old Volvo's and Mercedes' that I have seen referenced as having been bulletproof when endurance raced, but the most common domestic stuff seems to all be failure prone even with added coolers and whatnot.

The third 'middle ground' option would be a torque converter automatic that can be set (or forced) to fully lock the torque converter any time a standard clutch would be fully engaged. This could be either from the factory or with a tune/switch, and shifted either automatically or manually. Finding some transmissions that can do this would open up more desirable transmission (and engine) options, but information on which ones are capable of this and how to make them do it is extremely scarce.

 

Considering these options, what do you know about any transmissions that fit these criteria, and which would you go for?

The simplest and cheapest ATF  would be the GM turbo 400  you can drop the valve body and follow the methods on U tube to convert it to a Shift able 3 speed manual ( or spend about $40  to have it done)  capable of living in a junkyard state with 6-800 horsepower on a drag race environment. 
     Endurance during a typical 30 minute wheel to wheel racing event with day 500 hp would be years. 
  And for endurance racing, several events.  
       Shiftable means when you move the lever it shifts- right now!!!  Faster than a clutched transmission can shift. 
    What kills automatic transmissions is smooth shifting.  All that slipping to make it smooth  wears out clutch plates and heats up the fluid.  Don't mind the jerk?  Want it to last?  Make it a manual shift.