Column: The Greener Future of Motorsports

Electric cars are going to continue to be successful not because they are greener than ICE cars, but because of:

-public perception and resulting government subsidies, particularly in China but also the developed world.

-they are better for urban driving. That's why I own one. As JG said, fuel up at home and torque for days. Not to mention the heater and AC are instant and amazing. Not to mention the almost complete lack of maintenance. It adds up to a fantastic ownership experience.

-they promise to be green AND fun, not just green. The Prius is as efficient as we need a car to be. But it's as fun as a colonoscopy. That's why the limousine liberal crowd immediately switched to Tesla. Fun and green.

Until battery tech is super duper advanced, however, there's not much substitute for liquid fuels for energy density. Enough so that unless your electric application is really brief (autocross, maybe drag), how could it hope to compete? So we've got some time. Unfortunately, the car companies don't want to spend money on non-electric racing, so top level racing will shrink and move towards the SRO customer team model.

In reply to Dave M (Forum Supporter) :

The car companies don't want to spend money on electric racing because watching electric cars race is about as exciting as watching a Merry-go-round . 
 

The new generation doesn't have any hero's to cheer for Luke Earnhardt or Foyt or Dan Gurney. So even NASCAR attendance is falling. Indy 500 isn't selling out anymore and Formula 1  is basically all spec cars that are computer controlled. Yawn 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Dave M (Forum Supporter) :

The car companies don't want to spend money on electric racing because watching electric cars race is about as exciting as watching a Merry-go-round . 
 

The new generation doesn't have any hero's to cheer for Luke Earnhardt or Foyt or Dan Gurney. So even NASCAR attendance is falling. Indy 500 isn't selling out anymore and Formula 1  is basically all spec cars that are computer controlled. Yawn 

I'm not a fan of Formula E, but it's attracted a huge amount of manufacturer support. Cheap and sending the right message for them. F1 remains super popular, although the budgets there are probably unsustainable, even with the new cost caps.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Dave M (Forum Supporter) :

The car companies don't want to spend money on electric racing because watching electric cars race is about as exciting as watching a Merry-go-round . 
 

The new generation doesn't have any hero's to cheer for Luke Earnhardt or Foyt or Dan Gurney. So even NASCAR attendance is falling. Indy 500 isn't selling out anymore and Formula 1  is basically all spec cars that are computer controlled. Yawn 

I find that the off track engineering battles in F1 are more interesting than the on track racing, as they definitely aren't spec cars.  Every team has their own bespoke chassis, in contrast to Indycar where they all run the Dallara DW12.

Unfortunately the details of the engineering and development aspect of F1 doesn't come out until years later. 

I want as many people to adopt electric everything to save more gas for me. The sooner all the boring and worthless commuter cars are replaced with electric cars, the better. Save that gas for a worthy engine. Racing produces such a small percentage of the overall automotive based pollution; it is ridiculous that it gets as much negative press as it does. Porsche has the right idea though with biofuels for racing and performance street cars. Cost per gallon isn't the concern for that crowd, and it will get the eco-nuts off our backs. If people want to drive electric race cars, I have no problem with it, but don't expect me to join you willingly.

350z247 said:

Racing produces such a small percentage of the overall automotive based pollution; it is ridiculous that it gets as much negative press as it does. Porsche has the right idea though with biofuels for racing and performance street cars. Cost per gallon isn't the concern for that crowd, and it will get the eco-nuts off our backs.

Renewable synthetic fuels might buy a little time for those wealthy enough to not care about the price, but they're not a magic bullet. They'll still have smog creating tailpipe emissions to contend with that EVs and hydrogen fuel cells don't, which makes them a potential target down the line too.

In reply to STM317 :

By that point, it won't matter. The world can produce some pollution, just not as much as we were at peak. Most people don't care about cars and engines. Of the 350 million people in the US, I'd guess that less than 10% care enough about having an ICE to pay more than $8 a gallon for them (which coincidentally is about what Europe pays right now for premium gas).

350z247 said:

I want as many people to adopt electric everything to save more gas for me. The sooner all the boring and worthless commuter cars are replaced with electric cars, the better. Save that gas for a worthy engine. Racing produces such a small percentage of the overall automotive based pollution; it is ridiculous that it gets as much negative press as it does. Porsche has the right idea though with biofuels for racing and performance street cars. Cost per gallon isn't the concern for that crowd, and it will get the eco-nuts off our backs. If people want to drive electric race cars, I have no problem with it, but don't expect me to join you willingly.

You could isolate many activities and claim they only create a small percentage of greenhouse gas emissions and/or pollution and it would be true.  But add them all together and its a considerable amount.  Death by 1000 cuts and all that.

The sound is certainly part of the appeal of IC engines.  I wonder how much of that is the noise itself and how much of it is the associations we have from past experiences.

They're not loud but electric motors make noise.  I've only driven one EV (a late model Nissan Leaf) and you could hear the motor under heavy acceleration.  I've also driven an NSX on track and the two front motors made a surprising amount of noise while doing their thing. It's going to be interesting to see if the sound of an electric motor working hard becomes associated with speed and performance in our minds in the future. 

In reply to JG Pasterjak :

Vintage racing will continue for the rest of my life.  Just like horses have been ridden since the invention of the car.
    12 pistons sliding down stopping sliding up stopping sliding down again actually making power, and sliding up again to make noise.   Valves and chains whirring, clicking, clanking, roaring.  
     Modern people will accept that an electric motor is a better solution just like the railroads did 75 years ago. 
   
     

Lots of good comments here.

I unsubscribed from Autoweek because I felt like every article about electric cars had some headline that was meant to get you scared.  Scared that the thing you've been doing is on the way out.  But then that is one way to get attention- and to get people to click the link. 

So good for JG to bring up the subject without scare tactics.  The fact is that this is a discussion that will be had whether we as enthusiasts like it or not.  Might as well take a seat at the table.  So much time and energy (not to mention money) is/was/will be spent on these machines.  It's frustrating to think that it might go away.  It is true that things are changing, we are on the cusp of a big change in the auto industry.  The flip side to that is we are likely decades away from the days when it becomes hard to find gas stations.  Think about it.  Many major car companies are putting a date on it, like by 2030 no more ICE.  Audi just stated they are no longer developing ICE (fine tuning, just not developing).  Ok fine, so by 2030 no new cars with ICE will be produced, so by 2031 or so, there will be no new cars sold with ICE.  But all those people that bought their brand new 2031 ICE powered car will have a right to use that expensive item until it wears out.  So 20-30 years?  Or are we just going to take away people's cars?  Are we paying them?  Who pays for it?  Are we going to add to the deficit to buy back people's perfectly useful cars?  That is the reality.  Not to mention, there are many many people that don't have access to a plug at home, because in my neighborhood, many many people don't park in a garage.  I live in a city, and there is a long way to go in terms of infrastructure before electric cars become practical for the people who park on the street.  It is simply unreasonable to expect that they will spend 20-30 minutes (or whatever it is now) at the recharging station just for a partial charge.  We have a long way to go in terms of infrastructure.  Electric cars are possible now for many people (still expensive), but simply impractical for many more people (even if they could afford one).

One thing that really frustrates me about all of this stuff is the fact that (as JG pointed out above), a large portion of the electricity being produced (60%) is produced by burning fossil fuels (coal 20% and natural gas 40%). 

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php

Coal!!  Can you even believe we're having this conversation about electric cars and nobody is talking about coal?  Zero emissions from an electric car.  Seriously?  All right, problem solved.  Nothing coming out the back of the car.  Lets all celebrate!

29% of the greenhouse gas emissions comes from transportation (which is cars, trucks, ships, trains, AND planes).  When 25% of the Greenhouse gas emissions already comes from producing electricity, are we really accomplishing anything by switching to electric cars? 

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions

What will the overall reduction in greenhouse gases be?  I'm certain it's measurable, but it seems that we will need to look beyond passenger car emissions if we really want to get serious about reducing greenhouse gases.

I just looked up how many cars are in the world - best guess is 1.32 billion. It will take a lot of lithium and time to replace them all. I think that ICE vehicles will be with us for a while.

It will be fun to watch endurance racing like Le Mans converting to batteries. Pit strategies will be interesting with some teams doing short fast charges and others going for longer, but fewer deep charges. Or maybe they will figure out how to quickly change out depleted battery packs.

I have lost track of the hydrogen fuel cell progress over the last 10 years, but batteries are only a stop gap until they have to be perfected with cheap enough materials. We also have a local agricultural research center which converted it's diesel equipment to compressed hydrogen manufactured by two local commercial windmills as a show of concept experiment. 

VolvoHeretic said:

I have lost track of the hydrogen fuel cell progress over the last 10 years...

It will come after green hydrogen infrastructure is built out. There are pockets like out in Cali where you can lease some Toyota and Honda FCEVs and the ports are going all electric BEV and FCEV for longer hauls.

Consumerism does not equate to being "green" in any way shape or form. This whole push for "green" and environmentally-friendly" are buzzwords to make you feel good about your decisions. Calling the use of fossil fuels "six" and the use of electric cars "half-a-dozen" doesn't make either one any different. We are still raping the Earth of vital resources.

/Rant

*cough* We've been racing electric cars for over 40 years *cough*

DirtyBird222 said:

Consumerism does not equate to being "green" in any way shape or form. This whole push for "green" and environmentally-friendly" are buzzwords to make you feel good about your decisions. Calling the use of fossil fuels "six" and the use of electric cars "half-a-dozen" doesn't make either one any different. We are still raping the Earth of vital resources.

Your statement starts with something I totally agree with.  Then it appears to head straight for crazypants territory.

Electric cars can be greenER than ICE cars.  Progress.  Obviously no solution would be as green as simply not having cars.

jkimikos_ said:

Lots of good comments here.

I unsubscribed from Autoweek because I felt like every article about electric cars had some headline that was meant to get you scared.  Scared that the thing you've been doing is on the way out.  But then that is one way to get attention- and to get people to click the link. 

So good for JG to bring up the subject without scare tactics.  The fact is that this is a discussion that will be had whether we as enthusiasts like it or not.  Might as well take a seat at the table.  So much time and energy (not to mention money) is/was/will be spent on these machines.  It's frustrating to think that it might go away.  It is true that things are changing, we are on the cusp of a big change in the auto industry.  The flip side to that is we are likely decades away from the days when it becomes hard to find gas stations.  Think about it.  Many major car companies are putting a date on it, like by 2030 no more ICE.  Audi just stated they are no longer developing ICE (fine tuning, just not developing).  Ok fine, so by 2030 no new cars with ICE will be produced, so by 2031 or so, there will be no new cars sold with ICE.  But all those people that bought their brand new 2031 ICE powered car will have a right to use that expensive item until it wears out.  So 20-30 years?  Or are we just going to take away people's cars?  Are we paying them?  Who pays for it?  Are we going to add to the deficit to buy back people's perfectly useful cars?  That is the reality.  Not to mention, there are many many people that don't have access to a plug at home, because in my neighborhood, many many people don't park in a garage.  I live in a city, and there is a long way to go in terms of infrastructure before electric cars become practical for the people who park on the street.  It is simply unreasonable to expect that they will spend 20-30 minutes (or whatever it is now) at the recharging station just for a partial charge.  We have a long way to go in terms of infrastructure.  Electric cars are possible now for many people (still expensive), but simply impractical for many more people (even if they could afford one).

One thing that really frustrates me about all of this stuff is the fact that (as JG pointed out above), a large portion of the electricity being produced (60%) is produced by burning fossil fuels (coal 20% and natural gas 40%). 

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us.php

Coal!!  Can you even believe we're having this conversation about electric cars and nobody is talking about coal?  Zero emissions from an electric car.  Seriously?  All right, problem solved.  Nothing coming out the back of the car.  Lets all celebrate!

29% of the greenhouse gas emissions comes from transportation (which is cars, trucks, ships, trains, AND planes).  When 25% of the Greenhouse gas emissions already comes from producing electricity, are we really accomplishing anything by switching to electric cars? 

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions

What will the overall reduction in greenhouse gases be?  I'm certain it's measurable, but it seems that we will need to look beyond passenger car emissions if we really want to get serious about reducing greenhouse gases.

About 15 years ago I was selling wind generators at the time wind was generating about 2%  of the US power grid. Solar even less. Today that's now over 20%. 
Wind and sun are everywhere. Easy to convert. Don't require refining. 
    We still will need nuclear but they are already developing small safe standby units.  
 

 Don't worry the future is coming.  Stop looking in the past for answers.   No one is going to force you to do anything you don't want to.  You're going to continue to make your own choices and accept the consequences of those choices just as you  currently are. 

The problem starts with calling wind and solar "green." How much land would need to be covered with solar panels and wind turbines in order to power the average city? Now add to the demands on that grid all the "green" vehicles recharging, mostly at night when there's no sun. What's the environmental impact of all those panels and turbines? How long do they last and what's they're recycling ability? How much manpower is required to maintain thousands of square miles of them? How many more strip mines will be opened in order to supply new demand for battery metals?

NASA: "From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study published in the journal Nature Climate Change on April 25."

Too much climate hysteria. I don't buy into JG's parroted assumption that there is a global "problem" to solve and that the "solution" lies (even partially) in green vehicles. You want to race electric cars? Be my guest. Just don't Lord it over me like you're being some paragon of virtue because, let's face it, most people are doing it because they see it as virtuous.

And don't give me the "like it or lump it" authoritarian stance either. Let the various energy sources compete freely, with no government favoritism or interference. Then we'll see what's what.

jimgood said:

The problem starts with calling wind and solar "green." How much land would need to be covered with solar panels and wind turbines in order to power the average city? Now add to the demands on that grid all the "green" vehicles recharging, mostly at night when there's no sun. What's the environmental impact of all those panels and turbines? How long do they last and what's they're recycling ability? How much manpower is required to maintain thousands of square miles of them? How many more strip mines will be opened in order to supply new demand for battery metals?

NASA: "From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study published in the journal Nature Climate Change on April 25."

Too much climate hysteria. I don't buy into JG's parroted assumption that there is a global "problem" to solve and that the "solution" lies (even partially) in green vehicles. You want to race electric cars? Be my guest. Just don't Lord it over me like you're being some paragon of virtue because, let's face it, most people are doing it because they see it as virtuous.

And don't give me the "like it or lump it" authoritarian stance either. Let the various energy sources compete freely, with no government favoritism or interference. Then we'll see what's what.

Uuuuhhhhh.  I spent 30 years living in Fort McMurray, and still work in oilfield transport.  If you want to talk about area being stripped of vegetation, oil does more than it's fair share.  Not to mention the resources that go into the equipment it takes to process and move that oil.  Most people never see it, but it's massive 

If government subsidies were cut, we would be nuclear/solar/wind if not tomorrow then next week.  NG and coal are expensive and require propping up by subsidies to keep pace.

I'm surprised that a tracks insurance will let an EV on the track at all.  Putting out EV fires takes different training  and tools, and a WHOLE LOT MORE water than IC cars.

A good friend of mine is a Bentley/Rolls mechanic.  The amount of training he has to go through for the one, maybe two cars a year that he'll see is insane.  They covered what a Fire/EMS crew has to be trained in to even approach a crashed EV in his course.  If you crash your EV, best to do it in a large metropolitan area with a large budget for training.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/federal-regulators-warn-risks-firefighters-electrical-vehicle-fires-n1271084

Re solar panels and farmland

the highlighted part is important 

complete article

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaic

Error404 said:

I'm too stubborn at my young age, and too much of a car luddite too boot, to agree with your 1st point. Electric cars will be a good thing for urban commuting (for other people), once the industrial problems are addressed, but if my motorcycle lost its ICE I might as well strap pedals on it. Griping aside....

I do generally agree with your 2nd and 3rd points as being pretty common sense and I agree that we, as a community of enthusiasts, will likely feel more pressure sooner rather than later. Is being greener off-track going to satisfy the inevitable demands of the eco crowd? I can't imagine this is a new question so, if I were motivated, I would look at the last 30-50yrs of motorsports to extrapolate some guesses. Heck, is it greener that we keep these older cars going rather than rushing out to be good consumers and replace whole cars rather than components? 

In short, this is an important subject and I look forward to reading your column. 

 

I love pistons stopping and starting with only one stroke in 4 doing anything worth while. The more pistons the better, camshafts oh my.  Again the more the better, valves opening and closing  up and down in perfect syncronisity.  More, more, more,   A pretty polished engine can be a beautiful thing to watch.  
  Steam engines too!  They were awesome  in the noise and power they created with a screaming whistle  to boot.   
      Horses are beautiful as well. A living creature  running across a meadow delivering its rider  quickly.  Demanding only a little grain and grass to consume  

But Horses poop and their poop mixes with their pee on roads making a stinking mess that has to be cleaned up. 
 And trains belch smoke and sparks  starting fires that burn forests and grassland   
 My beloved engines with their screaming exhaust pollute and kids have to carry inhalers, living shorter lives because of that exhaust 

 So we are switching to EV's. No one is going to force anyone.  People will do it in their own self interest.  
    We still keep horses and steam engines    around.  So we'll keep ICE's around as well. Just like farmers kept a favorite horse  in the pasture   And Horse racing enthusiasts gather to watch horse races