Course design feedback, please!

Here is my proposed layout for the BMC season finale at Dover International Speedway:

This lot is 6 to 8 times the size of our typical venue and it's the first time I've designed a course with this much space. We have the usual wide gamut from stock Miatae through Corvettes and track day 911s. I have tried to lay out a course that is not too horsepower-driven, but let me know if you think I need to tighten it up any.

For reference, the gates are 20 feet wide (center of cone dot to center of cone dot). From the finish gate to the cone wall stopper is about 150', with another 30'-40' before you get to the jersey barrier. No gate is less than 50' from a curb or fence line. The slalom is evenly spaced at 65' centers. The largest 90* sweepers are 100' radius, the smallest are 50' radius, and others are in between. The Chicago box is 20' deep by 80' long.

Because of the limitations of our timing equipment, we will only have 1 car on course at a time, but I want to have cars queued up so that I can launch the next one just after the previous finish.

This event is next Sunday and I need to get a course map to the Speedway soon, so please give me your comments as soon as you can. Thanks! And come on out, if you're within a reasonable drive!

The section after the long slalom looks so fast that your event insurance may not be happy with it, but I see that there isn't a lot of room to offset the gates more. Maybe you should put 3 or even 4 gates before the big 180 right near the finish.

The section with the three "straights" heading back towards the paddock is one big acceleration zone...the fast cars will be going REALLY fast by the end of that. Maybe a chicane mid-way or so would help that. Looks great otherwise.

I agree that particular section looks 3rd gear fast. The surface also gets loose and dirty over in that part of the lot. But it looks like a fun course!

I'm not an Auto-X'r, but along with the last section looking fast, it's also aimed at the paddock....doesn't seem like a great idea?

When is the event? Maybe I'll come try it out first-hand.

We won't begin to fill that paddock up. All the cars will be down at the end near the grandstands - I doubt we will extend more than halfway down.

Point is taken about the fast part being too fast. I guess I will bend the turn after the slalom a little farther around to the right, and add another turn complex to slow you down and bring you through that gap in the island as more of a chicane, as suggested.

The event is next Sunday, 10/13. There's a link on the events board that leads to details and registration. Also in the first post here.

Thanks for the feedback - please keep it coming!

Post up the revised map when you got it...

That is the longest slalom I have ever seen. I love slaloms, so it's not necessarily a critique, but those course workers are going to be doing a LOT of running.

Agreed on the long straight(s). Too much speed can be trouble and give big HP cars an advantage. I can see that yard/house at the bottom corner seeing some backwards cars heading towards it

painful to force people straight into a Chicago box like that. Though I see why you did it.

I like it; and generally agree with all of the comments so far.

If I get my car back in one piece this weekend I will try to make it out... In which case I will advise you to slow it down for us underpowered guys!

First off, when I design courses, I don't assume that people are stupid, so I try to make the course easy to navigate in general so that you'd have to be a total bonehead to get lost. (But also at the same time, allow for course interpretation.) That means paying lots of attention to sight lines.

I would say that you might have some off courses after the first right hander. Visually, you're not directing people well to the next gate. I'd be concerned with people getting lost.

After the first 180, I'd probably put a few pointers on the offset gates, but it's not necessary. Again, I assume people are stupid or have red mist.

It's not clear whether the slalom is optional or not. Generally, the first cone is either marked with a double cone if optional or pointer if not optional.

I'm not sure what I think about the single cones (ie not part of a gate) in the curves. If you're using cones all the same color, it could be confusing which side to take the cone.

That "straight" heading southwest on the end looks WAY too fast.

I like the Chicago box (and it's approach). It's one of the more interesting bits of your design. Maybe put a few cones along that black line to make sure that people enter and exit on the correct sides.

DaveEstey wrote: painful to force people straight into a Chicago box like that. Though I see why you did it.

Ahhh, but that's the fun - see Scardeal's comments above. The line through that box is actually pretty open... it's just not obvious. You have to continue the sweeper around a little further before cutting left to slide through the box. I will probably move the apex cone of the box SW a little to open up the path somewhat.

I plan on putting inside pointer cones at most gates and all the single cones, to tell you which way the path curves through that particular gate. We also generally give out course maps at registration, so they should have a key to the layout.

The slalom is optional. One way sacrifices exit speed at the previous corner but improves entry speed at the following corner. The other way is reversed. I was not really aware of the 'double cone = optional' bit. I may not do that because I am thinking about making the first cone a single, the second a double, and the middle 2 triples, before tapering back down again. I figured the increased amplitude would A) add a bit of interest, and B) slow it down a little.

Yes, the slalom is long, but if I take 1 cone off I have to take 2 off to maintain the tradeoff of entry vs. exit. Besides, my daughter and I like slaloms...

I will post the updated plan as soon as I have it. Thanks again!

Fastest way around an autocross course is the shortest distance. You'd have to carry a LOT more speed by swinging wide before the box to make up for the extra distance you're traveling.

At 45mph you're moving 66 fps, so adding 30 feet to your line is basically adding half a second. You better carry a ton more speed to make up that difference for it to work.

I agree with the earlier comment of sight lines and making it easy to follow.
As such, right after the start, I would use extra cones to direct the entry into lot #2 and once in lot #2 a lot of cones denoting the path to the first 180 curve.

On the slalom, the way you have it set, coming out of the 180 and approaching the entry of the slalom, I would keep cone #1 to my driver's side wheels (turn right.) Coming out of the 180, your speed would be slow so a little more continuation of that 180 to greater than 180 would be my approach. This too would set up for more mirrored turns going through the slalom. The exit of the slalom also would be easier to get on the power quicker headed toward your fast back stretch.

More slalom thoughts: You mention removing a cone or two or adding cones. Have you considered altering the distance the between the cones?

Favor the slow exit speed style and have the first two segments reduce in size. This would require a car to slow as they advance. Once you get to the middle cone, let the spacing increase which would allow for increasing speeds as they head to the end of the slalom.

Keep this difference in spacing on the QT, meaning do not make it obvious. This knowledge will separate the competitors.
If you choose the fast entry into the slalom, you will be penalized by the need to brake and you will not gain the reward of the side that favors the quick exit.
A lot of other people will just expect that the cones to be identically spaced. True, the slalom will lack that rhythm of repeated lefts and rights and in a lot of ways, it will really not be a slalom though it will look like one.

Narrow the gates to 15 ft.

i don't know anything about autocross, but i do know it would be more fun if they'd let you do it on the other side of the grandstands...

iceracer wrote: Narrow the gates to 15 ft.

Thanks for the input so far, everybody. When I actually lay it out, I probably will narrow the gates to 16 feet. Here is the revised version, trying to incorporate all the great feedback:

Please let me know if you have any other comments!

Don't mean to be a PITA, but anybody have any thoughts on the adjustments above? Event is this Sunday and I have to furnish the landowner with a copy of the layout. Thanks again.

You just might want to move the second to last bend before the final 180 up and to the right some more, so anyone who spins out or plows on that corner has more room before the planter/island thing and cars that are both powerful and good-handling won't have too much of an advantage there.

I don't really have too much issue with the revisions.

Better. The last "Chicago Box" really favors high torque cars that can accelerate off of it...and I really did not take notice of this before. Can you move it down towards the start a bit so that the entry is shallower (and some momentum can be carried by the smaller cars)?..it will still slow cars down enough for a safe finish.

z31maniac wrote: I'm not an Auto-X'r, but along with the last section looking fast, it's also aimed at the paddock....doesn't seem like a great idea?

I'm still a bit concerned that anyone making a mistake on the sweeper ends up flying into the paddock, although at least they won't be going as fast with the new revision.

MadScientistMatt wrote:

z31maniac wrote: I'm not an Auto-X'r, but along with the last section looking fast, it's also aimed at the paddock....doesn't seem like a great idea?

I'm still a bit concerned that anyone making a mistake on the sweeper ends up flying into the paddock, although at least they won't be going as fast with the new revision.

That could be walled off...

It's just fenced. But, as I said, I don't expect there to be any vehicles that far down in the paddock. There's room for 150+ cars there and we'll probably have 60. I think the first part of the sweeper is not the tricky part; I'm expecting some people to got caught out by the tightening radius, and wind up in no man's land below the box.

Point taken about the box sliding over a bit, though I am trying to play a small trick in that the fast line is probably not the most direct there.