I've got a chance to trade for a 6.0 liter V12 but it has crank fired ignition. I'm terrified of computers because I've gotten too many cars and engines from people who have them and give up on them.
What is the simplest way to run a crank fired ignition system. Yes I have a good factory computer system, but this won't be a factory set-up.
Is there a a way to do a stand alone crank fired ignition?
Lacking that how hard will it be to connect a mega- squirt system? Please talk to me like I don't know what I'm doing( because I don't).
There is a standalone ignition system called mega jolt, basically mega squirt without fuel. There is also this freeems thing which might be cheaper still, and I bet Fred would help you out a lot since you might be his first v12.
That said, the basics are:
You have inputs, a computer, and outputs. The inputs are crank sensor, cam sensor (not always needed, for example wasted spark ignition and other ways to figure out which tdc the crank is on), coolant temp, and something for load (map, throttle position, etc). The computer takes the temp, rpm and load in a table you program, and turns it into a number of degrees of advance. It then uses that to fire the coils/plugs at the right time.
DO IT! We will be here to help.
If you're a mechanical dizzy guy:
Crank sensor = distributor gear, references the timing to the rotating assembly
Cam sensor = orientation of distributor in the slot, are you firing on the power stroke or 180 degrees out of time?
Load sensor = all the frustrating vacuum advance crap
Temp sensor = choke (ignition isn't a fuel thing but you can fix a lot of demons with good spark control)
Rpm sensor (the computer can probably calculate rpm from the crank sensor) = mechanical advance
The HT ignition system is basically unchanged. You just now have a computer opening the points exactly when it wants to.
Computer-controlled crank-fire ignition is really simple to set up. Much simpler and vastly more reliable than the nightmarish maelstrom of dieselpunk whirlygigs in a distributor system.
You have at least a crank sensor, maybe a cam sensor (if you have something against wasted spark), coil packs or coil on plugs, and an ECU on which you place an ignition table (one axis is RPM, the other is load) which tells the engine what timing to use (more specifically, tells the coils when to fire).
JoeTR6
HalfDork
11/8/17 8:57 a.m.
A guy in the shop where I'm working on the TR6 swapped a series 1 Esprit to a MegaJolt. It was fairly easy. I'd much rather set up a crank fired ignition than deal with a distributor and points.
Many years ago I used an Electromotive HPV setup on a TR6. The only settings on that are three potentiometers to adjust the timing curve. But those are getting fairly old at this point and a V12 would take an impressive array of GM coils (so probably $$$). It was simple and reliable, only requiring power and a VR sensor/trigger wheel on the crank nose.
In reply to Robbie :thanks Robbie, I may take you up on that!!!
If I do it I may as well go all the way and figure out fuel rejection. That way I can convert a fuel injection manifold to hold the supercharger and put a simple throttle body in front of the supercharger.
Lets see how much air will it need and can I find injectors big enough for the E85
In reply to Robbie : You know I kinda understand what you are saying.
I didn't know you were bilingual (able to speak Luddite and English)
On the other hand the mega squirt is in a cardboard box and somehow it has to learn to speak British to a bunch of Limey parts . Under as much boost as I can put into that V12 and do it all while under the influence of Alcohol.
Let the fun begin!!!
In reply to GameboyRMH : I don't see anything that could be a cam sensor. I do have coil packs (probably a Ford item)!
I assume the ECU will be the Mega Squirt?
I ran mega jolt on my Porsche for ten years and about 150k miles. Great system. The only thing that may make it a problem is V12.
I ran it with a 72-1-1 wheel on the cam. Made sensor mounting easy as well as easy mounting of the trigger wheel.
In reply to dean1484 : since Jaguar had a crank mounted trigger since 1992 that part is already done. In fact it has had EFI since 1975. Bosch in fact. That old system was wonderful. Not a single microchip, analog sensors etc. wonderfully easy to trick into thinking it was turbocharged right from the factory. Ability to richen with nothing more elaborate than a screwdriver. Stock it came with the biggest injectors Jaguars ever had.
frenchyd said:
In reply to GameboyRMH : I don't see anything that could be a cam sensor. I do have coil packs (probably a Ford item)!
I assume the ECU will be the Mega Squirt?
You don't really need a cam sensor for computer-controlled ignition, you can run it with just a crank sensor in wasted-spark configuration (fires a spark at the top of the compression and exhaust strokes because it doesn't know which is which). You could use a MegaSquirt ECU but those are overkilll, more of a full EMS system that can handle fuel, boost, nitrous, and the whole kitchen sink. If you just want to to run spark you could use a MegaJolt and save some money.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Turns out the trade isn't going to be such a good deal. He wants both a later 5.3 V12 short block assembly and the early good heads ( called flat heads) of which some years less than 1000 were made for global sales.
Plus it's down in his basement. That means either I disassemble it down there and carry it up piece by piece. ( poor light and no compressed air) Or figure out how to haul a 720 pound engine up a steep flight of stairs. ( mind you I'm almost 70 years old)
How did he get it in the basement?
You can do that with an MS3. MegaSquirt 3 with the MS3X expansion board
6 ignition outputs for wasted spark
Semi sequential injection on 6 outputs
Easy peasy.
In reply to bentwrench :
Or if you want to get fancy for a few more $$$, MS3Pro will do full sequential injection for a 12cyl IIRC.
In reply to spitfirebill : basement was a tuck under garage but addition to house enclosed it.
In reply to bentwrench :I'm trying very hard to do this on a retirement budget. Replacing something new I have for something better seems to be a very slippery slope.
GameboyRMH said:
nightmarish maelstrom of dieselpunk whirlygigs
Do I have permission to put this quote on my distributor if I credit you?
frenchyd said:
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Turns out the trade isn't going to be such a good deal. He wants both a later 5.3 V12 short block assembly and the early good heads ( called flat heads) of which some years less than 1000 were made for global sales.
Plus it's down in his basement. That means either I disassemble it down there and carry it up piece by piece. ( poor light and no compressed air) Or figure out how to haul a 720 pound engine up a steep flight of stairs. ( mind you I'm almost 70 years old)
Yep, sorry. No deal. If he wants to trade, he at least gets the parts out of his house for you. Moving heavy crap has value.
Maybe ask him to call some piano movers and have them price getting the engine up the stairs, then you can talk again about a free v12 with no trade parts.
In reply to rslifkin : right now I'm tempted to pass on the trade. Adding my good heads to a HE engine means the compression goes past the diesel stage.
New pistons start at $75 each x12 unless I can find something common and cheap I can use. Or modify and use. The good Cosworth pistons cost £254 plus whatever shipping is going to be etc
Then as long as I'm doing that I might as well bore the sleeves out (I can do that free on my lathe). heck offset grinding the crankshaft is only a couple hundred more.
Now I'm out to 7 & 1/2 liters Unless I go all the way and we're at 8 liters. But I will have to buy new connecting rods (x12)
That big it makes sense to port the heads, Jaguar makes it easy since you can use a ball mill on a vertical mill there is very little time consuming hand blending needed.
Suddenly I've budgeted over $10,000
Not on a retirement budget
In reply to Robbie : I still kinda want to do it though. I spend a weekend taking it apart. I can Haul the pieces up easy enough, everything is aluminum and I do own a nice Aluminum 2wheeler that could hump the short block assembly up the stairs one step at a time.
Maybe I'll just wait and see if he wants the engine out bad enough to just give it to me.
In reply to GameboyRMH : nightmarish maelstrom of diesel punk whirligigs.
I'm sorry, but a lifetime of experience and owning my own distributor machine causes me to like them.
I suspect I approach micro chips the same way you do distributors.
In reply to frenchyd :
What about milling larger chambers into the heads to drop compression instead of changing pistons? There also might be enough meat in the stock pistons to take a few CCs out of them.
frenchyd said:
In reply to GameboyRMH : nightmarish maelstrom of diesel punk whirligigs.
I'm sorry,
Actually dieselpunk is definitely one (compound) word. I can find both whirlygig and whirligig in dictionaries, although whirligig seems to be vastly more popular, so I'll give you that one 
