Crap-can racing that isn't "endurance" racing

Disclaimer - I've run a couple Lemons races and had a blast and have an affinity for all manner of Chump/Lemons type races.

Why do all crap-can type races have to be endurance races? Why can't we just go have normal heats and features, in crappy cheap cars? The fact of the matter, at least for myself, is that team dynamics for late 20's or early 30's males get a bit tricky to say the least. In the 3 years that we had our team, 3 bought houses, 2 got married, one got married and divorced, 1 had children, and 1 moved 5 states away.

Frankly, I'd like to just be responsible for myself and have my usual race friends hang out and go racing for the weekend and be able to do more than just 2 races a year.

In reply to CLynn85:

I don't race, and likely never will (other than autocross), but I've wondered the same thing!

Might have something to do with amount of track-time vs. dollars to enter.

A few hundred bucks per person for an endurance event is a little easier to swallow for a lot of people, compared to roughly the same amount for an hour or so of track-time.

Circle tracks!

I've been going to a 1/4 mile dirt track recently and except for the highest classes they run crapcan cars. Unfortunately races are only 5-15 minutes long and you only get to turn one way, but it's a blast.

carguy123 wrote: Circle tracks! I've been going to a 1/4 mile dirt track recently and except for the highest classes they run crapcan cars. Unfortunately races are only 5-15 minutes long and you only get to turn one way, but it's a blast.

I guess I should've also put this in the disclaimer. I'm a big oval track fan, and you can't beat the fun/$ ratio, but I'm talking about road-courses.

grafmiata wrote: Might have something to do with amount of track-time vs. dollars to enter. A few hundred bucks per person for an endurance event is a little easier to swallow for a lot of people, compared to roughly the same amount for an hour or so of track-time.

Just doing a cursory look at NASA racing entry fees, for a one day entry it's usually $250, for 2-day $450, that's actually CHEAPER than an HPDE.

CLynn85 wrote:

grafmiata wrote: Might have something to do with amount of track-time vs. dollars to enter. A few hundred bucks per person for an endurance event is a little easier to swallow for a lot of people, compared to roughly the same amount for an hour or so of track-time.

Just doing a cursory look at NASA racing entry fees, for a one day entry it's usually $250, for 2-day $450, that's actually CHEAPER than an HPDE.

Just depends where you are, my local track is $200 for an "HPDE" weekend. 10 sessions over 2 days.

Car prep and event costs are pretty manageable when split between 4-6 people. As soon as you start doing sprints there's no time for driver changes, so everyone needs a car (and a tow vehicle, and a crew...) and you're just about back to entry-level club racing.

Another way you might frame the question is why doesn't NASA/SCCA start a limited-prep class for $500 cars?

nderwater wrote: Car prep and event costs are pretty manageable when split between 4-6 people. As soon as you start doing sprints there's no time for driver changes, so everyone needs a car (and a tow vehicle, and a crew...) and you're just about back to entry-level club racing. Another way you might frame the question is why doesn't NASA/SCCA start a limited-prep class for $500 cars?

they don't want to cheapen their brand...

novaderrik wrote:

nderwater wrote: Car prep and event costs are pretty manageable when split between 4-6 people. As soon as you start doing sprints there's no time for driver changes, so everyone needs a car (and a tow vehicle, and a crew...) and you're just about back to entry-level club racing. Another way you might frame the question is why doesn't NASA/SCCA start a limited-prep class for $500 cars?

they don't want to cheapen their brand...

This. Plus, the questionable safety aspects of junk cars being driven by people of random skill levels.

A counter to a post above: racing is 'cheaper' than HPDE by a little bit, but there is one factor...there's one less session on track. We get no practice Sunday AM, only qualifying and then the race. HPDE gets 3 sessions each day (in my region anyway). So you're still paying for the same amount of pavement time.

You guys and gals can get the same 'feel' of racing if you follow the process to what equals NASA HPDE 3; passing anywhere (with a point by) but with far more vehicle preservation rules so bad things don't happen. Build your speed through HPDE while also building your car (and by that, I mean progressively adding safety equipment, or getting a better/faster car). As appealing as a cheap form of racing is, now being a racer and instructor I wouldn't be particularly excited to find myself on a Chump/LeMons track with a bunch of people of unknown background.

novaderrik wrote:

nderwater wrote: Car prep and event costs are pretty manageable when split between 4-6 people. As soon as you start doing sprints there's no time for driver changes, so everyone needs a car (and a tow vehicle, and a crew...) and you're just about back to entry-level club racing. Another way you might frame the question is why doesn't NASA/SCCA start a limited-prep class for $500 cars?

they don't want to cheapen their brand...

they're actually working on it ... the SE-Div is working on a way to get some of the Le-Chump type cars and drivers cert. and licensed and give them a place in the IT class to play (on street tires)

don't know if NASA is looking at doing anything in this area

The level of prep for our lemons car was SIGNIFICANTLY less than even an amateur class of NASA/SCCA racing.

HPDE doesn't scratch the competition itch for me. Is it fun with lots of track time, certainly. But I don't want point-by's and if I bang doors with a GT3, there's going to be hell to pay....

I already own the tow vehicle and trailer, that's not an issue.

A "lemons" class for NASA/SCCA would mostly answer the mail, but I don't see that happening, and you'd lose the light-hearted feel of the le-chump races.

wbjones wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

nderwater wrote: Car prep and event costs are pretty manageable when split between 4-6 people. As soon as you start doing sprints there's no time for driver changes, so everyone needs a car (and a tow vehicle, and a crew...) and you're just about back to entry-level club racing. Another way you might frame the question is why doesn't NASA/SCCA start a limited-prep class for $500 cars?

they don't want to cheapen their brand...

they're actually working on it ... the SE-Div is working on a way to get some of the Le-Chump type cars and drivers cert. and licensed and give them a place in the IT class to play (on street tires) don't know if NASA is looking at doing anything in this area

I like this idea. I can't gather a team or afford a big pile of race slicks every year. 15-20 laps and I'm exhausted so enduro's don't work for me.

ddavidv wrote: As appealing as a cheap form of racing is, now being a racer and instructor I wouldn't be particularly excited to find myself on a Chump/LeMons track with a bunch of people of unknown background.

On the other hand, there are a handful of champions (Randy Pobst, Leh Keen, Tony Stewart, Emanuele Pirro, etc.) who run these events from time to time and seem to find them pretty fun.

nderwater wrote: Another way you might frame the question is why doesn't NASA/SCCA start a limited-prep class for $500 cars?

They announced a regional class last year, I believe, for these kinds of cars. IT-J, or Improved Touring Junk. I don't think it accrued points toward any championships, and I don't think there were many takers. It was basically an exhibition class.

They also have an open exhibition class, called ITX. I've seen the Hongs run their MX-3 at the ARRC at Road Atlanta in that class.

If you look at the typical Improved Touring build, though, I think you're just a couple grand away from an ITB or ITC car. You can buy a used IT car for as little as $1500. I've been tempted many times.

I like the idea of an IT (or less) prep level class on street tires.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/what-i-do-for-funback-40-racing/46791/page1/

nderwater wrote:

ddavidv wrote: As appealing as a cheap form of racing is, now being a racer and instructor I wouldn't be particularly excited to find myself on a Chump/LeMons track with a bunch of people of unknown background.

On the other hand, there are a handful of champions (Randy Pobst, Leh Keen, Tony Stewart, Emanuele Pirro, etc.) who run these events from time to time and seem to find them pretty fun.

Agreed. There are people of unknown background in virtually every level of motorsport. All they have to do is show up and pay.

Most folks at the crapcan races come from a motorsports background. It's no easier or cheaper to field a mid-pack Chumpcar than it is to field an entry level club racer. A lot of people seem to think it is more fun, and that perception is what the clubs need to focus on. .

nderwater wrote:

ddavidv wrote: As appealing as a cheap form of racing is, now being a racer and instructor I wouldn't be particularly excited to find myself on a Chump/LeMons track with a bunch of people of unknown background.

On the other hand, there are a handful of champions (Randy Pobst, Leh Keen, Tony Stewart, Emanuele Pirro, etc.) who run these events from time to time and seem to find them pretty fun.

James Clay was at the VIR 24hr chump car .... the day after driving at Road America

novaderrik wrote:

nderwater wrote: Another way you might frame the question is why doesn't NASA/SCCA start a limited-prep class for $500 cars?

they don't want to cheapen their brand...

That's what I've always said about rally and road racing, except I wasn't pc about it.

Chumpcar DOES do sprint races.

Check out their forum.

Son of a gun - Chump ran sprints at Pueblo and Charlotte this year. I'm not seeing much detail on how that worked - did anyone here participate?

it's off-road, but they have this near me. I watched one time, and it looked like a blast. http://www.erxmotorpark.com/beatercross.html

A very good point. As a Lemons vet I can say that if I could just bring a Lemonesque prepped car out for 2 20 minute heats and one big feature of maybe 45 minutes for maybe a few hundred bucks entry, I would be interested.

I can think of a few good reasons not to allow unquantifiable driver talent into a ballz out sprint race. You have to have some trust in the other drivers when you are all trying to occupy the same space at 140mph. Talent is varied enough at the pointy end of most racing that it can be an issue... lowering the bar is a bad idea when you up the ante to zero pit stops.

I could certainly field a safe entry with a $500 car and then $3-4k of safety equipment above that without issue - but then, I'd not enjoy throwing away $4500 in turn one when some asshat in a joke car he made out of an old chicken coop ran into the back of me.

Pass tech, have a racing license sanctioned by a real racing enterprise and... absolutely.