Daytona 500

glueguy wrote: I'm Danica-neutral but I give her huge credit for running well, staying competitive all day with the amount of hype and pressure. That can't be easy. I can't even imagine the pressure that she felt last night and into this morning. And as for the end, she did the safe thing and admitted the same thing I was wondering - if she pulled out if anyone would have followed or not. If not the train goes by and turns it into a 20th finish.

exactly what happened to a MUCH more experienced driver.... Jeff Gordon

Daytona is Daytona...restrictor plate racing is restrictor plate racing. Gen 5, Gen 6, even Gen 4. The different car changes how they do what they do there, but it's still the same. Restrictor plates make it the "great equalizer". That's how guys like Michael McDowell and JJ Yeley can finish in the top 10 driving cars who have a yearly budget equal to a one race budget for the big boys. I'm more interested to see what happens at Phoenix, Vegas, Bristol.

Same holds true for Danica. Give her credit for keeping it up front all day and staying out of trouble. But beyond that, I'm not super impressed. She said in her interview that she was just riding around at half throttle most of the time. Let's see what she does when the plates come off.

As for thinking NASCAR is boring, it's all perspective. I love road racing too, but I can't watch 2 laps of F1 without having to change the channel.

The race was just OK as far as entertainment,IMO. It seems they've lost some of the excitement of the plate races as it looked harder to get one or two cars to come with you and get up to the front. Maybe they don't have the teamwork they used to have, but I bet it's the cars are just too closely matched. I think a driver with Danica's car could have won if, in the last laps, the driver could have relied on some help when stepping out of line to go for it. I also think the suspicion she voiced that she'd have been left out on her own and cycled to 30th is correct. Would Jr. have helped her? She sure did get a lot of mentions yesterday... but hey, it's business, right? Half the planet is women folk. My wife was rooting for her.

6th gen bumpers are different across the makes now so a Ford won't match-up w/ a Chevy or Toyota and vice-versa.

i.e. Fords should bump draft better w/ Fords, Chevys w/ Chevys.

glueguy wrote: I'm Danica-neutral.

This sounds like the results of an STD test.

It's not so much the manufacturers, but that the front and rear bumpers don't line up anymore.

I don't know why people think long green flag races are boring. To me, those are the most fun to watch. It was 20-30 years ago, but one of the best NASCAR races I ever saw went flag-to-flag green with no cautions. In the end, it came down to strategy and fuel mileage. IIRC, Harry Gant made it to the line first.

If a team puts a great car together for a race and the driver does a great job of getting it to the front and keeping it there, they deserve to win. Instead it seems like if a car gets too much of a lead, Jaques DeBris rears his ugly head and that lead gets erased. It's crap like that which made me stop watching NASCAR so much.

Ian F wrote: I don't know why people think long green flag races are boring. To me, those are the most fun to watch. It was 20-30 years ago, but one of the best NASCAR races I ever saw went flag-to-flag green with no cautions. In the end, it came down to strategy and fuel mileage. IIRC, Harry Gant made it to the line first. If a team puts a great car together for a race and the driver does a great job of getting it to the front and keeping it there, they deserve to win. Instead it seems like if a car gets too much of a lead, Jaques DeBris rears his ugly head and that lead gets erased. It's crap like that which made me stop watching NASCAR so much.

i remember a Talledega race that went without cautions about 20 years ago... that added to the drama a bit, because no one wanted to come into the pits to get tires and gas because they thought that the "big one" could happen at any time and they didn't want to get caught on pit road or be stuck back in the pack when it did.. i'm sure the drivers were pretty worn out at the end of that one..

In reply to Ian F:

That likely wasn't a restrictor plate race. What makes them boring to me is that it's just a high-speed-rolling-parade-like chess game. Running cars around an oval flat out to me is akin to racing those slow go karts at the recreation places where the karts are so equal that you don't have enough power to pass anyone. No passing=boring. Passing because you have 5 cars behind you and your passing someone that got shut out=boring. But that's what you have in a restrictor plate race. The commentators like to tout that the last place car is only a second or two behind the leader. That would be exciting if it wasn't for the fact that NASCAR has limited them so much that nobody can accelerate and pass on their own. Just my opinion.

T.J. wrote: It seems like they are all the same guys. Aren't all the guys who race on Sundays also racing on Saturdays? Seems really dumb that they allow that. Should be in one series or the other.

Nah. When James Clay showed up in my field at Mid-Ohio this fall I thought it was pretty cool. I didn't have any illusions that the crapwagon E30 was going to give his E92 Grand Am GT car a run but I do get to say I made him go the long way around the keyhole to get by (when lapping me in the enduro :) ).

I could sign up to run in any two series in NASA, SCCA, BMW... If I was popular and talented enough to have teams give me a ride to help sell tickets and I had to be there that weekend anyway... 200 extra practice laps are valuable.

In reply to bravenrace:

True. That was the pre-plate era. I agree the restrictor plates have made the sport less entertaining and arguebly no less dangerous. I'm not sure what the alternative is, though, other than creating a completely different set of engine rules for the super speedways.

In reply to Ian F:

I've always said if they want to slow them down, go back to relatively stock bodies, meaning without all the airo enhancements. Along with that, take away most of the downforce. The drag would slow them down, and the lack of downforce would make them have to lift in corners instead of run flat out, which I think would make for better racing. Cars you can identify, differences in mechanical grip that would allow more passing, and engines with more power so they could do it.

Ian F wrote: Instead it seems like if a car gets too much of a lead, Jaques DeBris rears his ugly head and that lead gets erased. It's crap like that which made me stop watching NASCAR so much.

Took me a second to read that again with understanding.
I really wish, if they need a caution for Mr. DeBris, they'd go green again as soon as the track workers are clear. No need for ten minutes of commercials and twelve yellow laps, guys. Get the crap off the track and get back to green. If the teams choose to pit, good for them. Hope it works out for them.

T.J. wrote: It seems like they are all the same guys. Aren't all the guys who race on Sundays also racing on Saturdays? Seems really dumb that they allow that. Should be in one series or the other.

There are a number of benefits to having the cup drivers run in the lower series. Besides selling some more tickets and getting the regulars fan and media exposure they otherwise wouldn't get you can learn alot from them. When we ran in the Busch North series we had the chance to run Daytona one year. Many people from the bigger teams like RCR and Roush were very helpful and we learned a lot that made us better all year, and we were able to help out some of the local teams in our area do better at their tracks. You also meet people and a few of my friends were able to move down south and are with Cup teams now.

Ian F wrote: In reply to bravenrace: True. That was the pre-plate era. I agree the restrictor plates have made the sport less entertaining and arguebly no less dangerous. I'm not sure what the alternative is, though, other than creating a completely different set of engine rules for the super speedways.

And as if, you think plate engines are the same as any other Cup engine... PFFFT.

It wouldn't be any harder to do a "new and restricted" engine as it is to produce a current plate engine.

novaderrik wrote:

i remember a Talledega race that went without cautions about 20 years ago... that added to the drama a bit, because no one wanted to come into the pits to get tires and gas because they thought that the "big one" could happen at any time and they didn't want to get caught on pit road or be stuck back in the pack when it did.. i'm sure the drivers were pretty worn out at the end of that one..

Would that have been the fastest NASCAR race in history, won by Mark Martin? Not a bad stat to have on the resume.

cwaters wrote:

Ian F wrote: Instead it seems like if a car gets too much of a lead, Jaques DeBris rears his ugly head and that lead gets erased. It's crap like that which made me stop watching NASCAR so much.

Took me a second to read that again with understanding. I really wish, if they need a caution for Mr. DeBris, they'd go green again as soon as the track workers are clear. No need for ten minutes of commercials and twelve yellow laps, guys. Get the crap off the track and get back to green. If the teams choose to pit, good for them. Hope it works out for them.

NASCAR has a set of rules that they follow for yellow flags... the first lap pits are closed... the second lap the lead lap cars get to pit... third lap everyone else can pit. 4th lap the pits are open for everyone and they get back in formation or dive in for fuel at the last opportunity if they think there will be a longer run to give them an advantage... then they go back to green... this assumes, of course, that the reason for the yellow has been cleared in that period of time- it can take a while to get dead cars off the track (why don't they put tow hooks on them instead of making the workers pop the hoods and hook straps to the chassis under the hood???) and pick up all the bits and pieces that flew off it or fix a crunched up SAFER barrier, so it might take more laps to clean it up.

shorter tracks like Bristol or Martinsville have much shorter yellow flags than Daytona or Talledega simply due to the size of the tracks..

Ian F wrote: In reply to bravenrace: True. That was the pre-plate era. I agree the restrictor plates have made the sport less entertaining and arguebly no less dangerous. I'm not sure what the alternative is, though, other than creating a completely different set of engine rules for the super speedways.

NASCAR has a lot of engineers a whole lot smarter than me who study this stuff. But from a fans perspective, I'd say "dirty" the cars up. Take the aero stuff away, put skinnier/harder tires on them, create drag. Do whatever they need to so that the cars can't go flat out around the track, just like at any other track they run on. Then take the plates off. It'll always be a dangerous track, but get rid of those 30 car packs where everyone but the leader is driving at 1/2 throttle.

I'd stick skinny, hard compound tires on them so they couldn't take the corners flat out and would have to slow down.

That, or give each crew three 10 lb bottles of nitrous, a limit that only one can be in the car at the time, and it has to be run through a remote shut off valve that keeps it from being used on the last five laps.

The problem is that it is difficult to put the jeanie back in the bottle. Aero is a difficult problem, and seamingly small things can make a huge difference. We picked up 10mph at a Kentucky test using a sledge hammer. No lie. Just blunting the frame rails would do that underneath. And then you flatten the edges of the car slightly instead of rolling them. The smallest differences on how you build the bodies can make big, big differences in speed. The newer cars have tighter templets, but there is still a bit of gray area. Having a spec body would help, but then you get people complaining about a spec series.

Not sure hard compound tires would be the answer either. You need some stick to put on an actual race. If everyone out there were sliding around, you'd be hard pressed to even make passes. Too hard of a tire is not the answer, that gets to a safety problem, but for sure they are not like a sticky F1 tire already. It's a tough question.

The real answer is going to be to dirty up the cars, but the how is the problem. And no matter what you do, short of sticking a giant parachute on top the cars, is going to keep the crews from finding a work around.

I'm in the minority, but I'd give them 1,000 plus hp, take away much of their bodywork parameters, and let each manufacturer build a body that closely resembles their street cars, and let them have at it. Of course you'd end up with strung out fields like you saw before the restrictor plates and then people would complain that it's boring.

It's a fine line between making a car that's driveable, and having a series someone wants to watch.

8k rev limit, push to pass (500-800rpm bump), and "dump truck" engines, IE- no more 4.2" bore/"no" stroke engines, instead they get the same cubes, but stroke has to be 3.6"+.

racerdave600 wrote: I'm in the minority, but I'd give them 1,000 plus hp, take away much of their bodywork parameters, and let each manufacturer build a body that closely resembles their street cars, and let them have at it. Of course you'd end up with strung out fields like you saw before the restrictor plates and then people would complain that it's boring. It's a fine line between making a car that's driveable, and having a series someone wants to watch.

You're right that people complain that it gets boring when the cars get strung out at Daytona and Talladega. Yet it happens at most other tracks and you don't hear as much complaining. I'd love to see them go back to a car that strongly resembles the actual street car and then let them have at it.

What kind of car was it that you picked up 10mph with a sledge hammer? IIRC, I think you mentioned before you work with a team, but I don't recall which series.

racerdave600 wrote: The problem is that it is difficult to put the jeanie back in the bottle. Aero is a difficult problem, and seamingly small things can make a huge difference. We picked up 10mph at a Kentucky test using a sledge hammer. No lie. Just blunting the frame rails would do that underneath. And then you flatten the edges of the car slightly instead of rolling them. The smallest differences on how you build the bodies can make big, big differences in speed. The newer cars have tighter templets, but there is still a bit of gray area. Having a spec body would help, but then you get people complaining about a spec series.

One of the things I learned there was how big a difference small things made. We bought a used car that had some body damage. I fixed the corners of the rear bumper to look rounded to look like the new one we had for another car, When we got down there everyone else had their's squared off. I didn't know how big a difference it would make but going through inspection they made everyone round their's back off so it must have been worth something. It was also humbling as we were rebuilding another car from a Lumina to a new Monte Carlo body. I thought we looked good but the big teams made a completely different car with the same pile of bits.

racerdave600 wrote: The real answer is going to be to dirty up the cars, but the how is the problem. And no matter what you do, short of sticking a giant parachute on top the cars, is going to keep the crews from finding a work around.

When they get their plates hand everyone a JC Whittney hood ornament with big light up wings.

Klayfish wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: I'm in the minority, but I'd give them 1,000 plus hp, take away much of their bodywork parameters, and let each manufacturer build a body that closely resembles their street cars, and let them have at it. Of course you'd end up with strung out fields like you saw before the restrictor plates and then people would complain that it's boring. It's a fine line between making a car that's driveable, and having a series someone wants to watch.

You're right that people complain that it gets boring when the cars get strung out at Daytona and Talladega. Yet it happens at most other tracks and you don't hear as much complaining. I'd love to see them go back to a car that strongly resembles the actual street car and then let them have at it. What kind of car was it that you picked up 10mph with a sledge hammer? IIRC, I think you mentioned before you work with a team, but I don't recall which series.

For me, close racing is only exciting if it's real racing, not because all the cars are artificially made to go the exact same speed. I actually like strung out racing, because it shows that the hard work of those out front paid off.

kabel wrote: from what I've heard, and the 10-15 min I tried to watch, it seemed to be a very predictable nascar and boring race. I changed the channel when there was a caution with 9 to go.

But that is usuall the best part of the race. You missed it all.