Daytona 500

In reply to iceracer:

Except not much happened in those laps. Earnhardt and Martin came up to the front and that's it.

novaderrik wrote:

cwaters wrote:

Took me a second to read that again with understanding. I really wish, if they need a caution for Mr. DeBris, they'd go green again as soon as the track workers are clear. No need for ten minutes of commercials and twelve yellow laps, guys. Get the crap off the track and get back to green. If the teams choose to pit, good for them. Hope it works out for them.

NASCAR has a set of rules that they follow for yellow flags... the first lap pits are closed... the second lap the lead lap cars get to pit... third lap everyone else can pit. 4th lap the pits are open for everyone and they get back in formation or dive in for fuel at the last opportunity if they think there will be a longer run to give them an advantage... then they go back to green... this assumes, of course, that the reason for the yellow has been cleared in that period of time- it can take a while to get dead cars off the track (why don't they put tow hooks on them instead of making the workers pop the hoods and hook straps to the chassis under the hood???) and pick up all the bits and pieces that flew off it or fix a crunched up SAFER barrier, so it might take more laps to clean it up. shorter tracks like Bristol or Martinsville have much shorter yellow flags than Daytona or Talledega simply due to the size of the tracks..

And that's all fine for "The Big One" but when somebody leaves the pits with a wedge wrench it still takes eleventy laps to get back to green... Go get the wrench and get back to green ASAP. It's not necessary to provide everyone a leasurly pit party for EVERY yelow flag. Hell, I've even seen them go through all that pit sequencing for a spin where the car never hit anything. At least with a big wreck, there's a lot of replays to show to help eat-up that time.

iceracer wrote:

kabel wrote: from what I've heard, and the 10-15 min I tried to watch, it seemed to be a very predictable nascar and boring race. I changed the channel when there was a caution with 9 to go.

But that is usuall the best part of the race. You missed it all.

I missed nothing we have not seen before. it was the same exact race as the past several years, only some of the names have changed. Why bother with the other 475 miles? While it may see just a boring, I would much rather see a green flag to checker flag race with no cautions.

In reply to kabel:

Caution-free races are rare birds in any form of racing. It doesn't matter if they are 100/200/500 mile events. regardless on the sanctioning body.

Maybe you could lower the bar a bit or just be satisfied with perpetual disappointment.

cwaters wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

cwaters wrote:

Took me a second to read that again with understanding. I really wish, if they need a caution for Mr. DeBris, they'd go green again as soon as the track workers are clear. No need for ten minutes of commercials and twelve yellow laps, guys. Get the crap off the track and get back to green. If the teams choose to pit, good for them. Hope it works out for them.

NASCAR has a set of rules that they follow for yellow flags... the first lap pits are closed... the second lap the lead lap cars get to pit... third lap everyone else can pit. 4th lap the pits are open for everyone and they get back in formation or dive in for fuel at the last opportunity if they think there will be a longer run to give them an advantage... then they go back to green... this assumes, of course, that the reason for the yellow has been cleared in that period of time- it can take a while to get dead cars off the track (why don't they put tow hooks on them instead of making the workers pop the hoods and hook straps to the chassis under the hood???) and pick up all the bits and pieces that flew off it or fix a crunched up SAFER barrier, so it might take more laps to clean it up. shorter tracks like Bristol or Martinsville have much shorter yellow flags than Daytona or Talledega simply due to the size of the tracks..

And that's all fine for "The Big One" but when somebody leaves the pits with a wedge wrench it still takes eleventy laps to get back to green... Go get the wrench and get back to green ASAP. It's not necessary to provide everyone a leasurly pit party for EVERY yelow flag. Hell, I've even seen them go through all that pit sequencing for a spin where the car never hit anything. At least with a big wreck, there's a lot of replays to show to help eat-up that time.

you're just being dramatic now...if someone leaves the pits with a wedge wrench, they get told to come back into the pits to get it removed and they wind up at the back of the pack- which sometimes restarts while they are on pit road or 3/4 of a lap behind the leaders. last year some teams were having problems with the gas cans and a couple of them went back out on the track with the car, but it didn't cause a delay of any kind to the race... it might have happened at some time, but i can't think of one instance where something like a wedge wrench or gas can has delayed the restart.

there was one crew guy that chased a runaway tire out into the trioval infield at either Talledega or Daytona last year while the track was green. he prevented the tire from bringing out a caution, but he caused his car to have to come in for a stop and go penalty under green flag conditions for putting himself in danger like that..

and sometimes they get right back to racing- yellow flags at Bristol can be extremely short.. as in short enough to miss the restart because they went to a 60 second commercial break shortly after the yellow came out..

cwaters wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

cwaters wrote:

Took me a second to read that again with understanding. I really wish, if they need a caution for Mr. DeBris, they'd go green again as soon as the track workers are clear. No need for ten minutes of commercials and twelve yellow laps, guys. Get the crap off the track and get back to green. If the teams choose to pit, good for them. Hope it works out for them.

NASCAR has a set of rules that they follow for yellow flags... the first lap pits are closed... the second lap the lead lap cars get to pit... third lap everyone else can pit. 4th lap the pits are open for everyone and they get back in formation or dive in for fuel at the last opportunity if they think there will be a longer run to give them an advantage... then they go back to green... this assumes, of course, that the reason for the yellow has been cleared in that period of time- it can take a while to get dead cars off the track (why don't they put tow hooks on them instead of making the workers pop the hoods and hook straps to the chassis under the hood???) and pick up all the bits and pieces that flew off it or fix a crunched up SAFER barrier, so it might take more laps to clean it up. shorter tracks like Bristol or Martinsville have much shorter yellow flags than Daytona or Talledega simply due to the size of the tracks..

And that's all fine for "The Big One" but when somebody leaves the pits with a wedge wrench it still takes eleventy laps to get back to green... Go get the wrench and get back to green ASAP. It's not necessary to provide everyone a leasurly pit party for EVERY yelow flag. Hell, I've even seen them go through all that pit sequencing for a spin where the car never hit anything. At least with a big wreck, there's a lot of replays to show to help eat-up that time.

There is a such thing as a quickie yellow where lead lap and lap down cars pit at once, but it doesn't seem to get used very often.

turbojunker wrote:

cwaters wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

cwaters wrote:

Took me a second to read that again with understanding. I really wish, if they need a caution for Mr. DeBris, they'd go green again as soon as the track workers are clear. No need for ten minutes of commercials and twelve yellow laps, guys. Get the crap off the track and get back to green. If the teams choose to pit, good for them. Hope it works out for them.

NASCAR has a set of rules that they follow for yellow flags... the first lap pits are closed... the second lap the lead lap cars get to pit... third lap everyone else can pit. 4th lap the pits are open for everyone and they get back in formation or dive in for fuel at the last opportunity if they think there will be a longer run to give them an advantage... then they go back to green... this assumes, of course, that the reason for the yellow has been cleared in that period of time- it can take a while to get dead cars off the track (why don't they put tow hooks on them instead of making the workers pop the hoods and hook straps to the chassis under the hood???) and pick up all the bits and pieces that flew off it or fix a crunched up SAFER barrier, so it might take more laps to clean it up. shorter tracks like Bristol or Martinsville have much shorter yellow flags than Daytona or Talledega simply due to the size of the tracks..

And that's all fine for "The Big One" but when somebody leaves the pits with a wedge wrench it still takes eleventy laps to get back to green... Go get the wrench and get back to green ASAP. It's not necessary to provide everyone a leasurly pit party for EVERY yelow flag. Hell, I've even seen them go through all that pit sequencing for a spin where the car never hit anything. At least with a big wreck, there's a lot of replays to show to help eat-up that time.

There is a such thing as a quickie yellow where lead lap and lap down cars pit at once, but it doesn't seem to get used very often.

they tend to do that when a caution was just out not too long before and the track is quickly cleared- say if someone blows up and only spits out oil and the spinny bits of the engine down on the apron or 'splodes a tire and doesn't leave too much tire and body debris on the track.

but this kind of thread always brings out the NASCAR haters that claim the racing sucks and that they never watch it.. until the next week, when they come on and complain about how it sucked.. and then the next week.. i can't stand F1 or pretty much anything else where the wheels are open (except the WoW sprint cars- those are objectively awesome), but i won't jump into any F1 or Indycar threads just to say how much it sucks..

oldsaw wrote: In reply to kabel: Caution-free races are rare birds in any form of racing. It doesn't matter if they are 100/200/500 mile events. regardless on the sanctioning body. Maybe you could lower the bar a bit or just be satisfied with perpetual disappointment.

I'm not sure when things changed in NASCAR but when I was much younger, caution free weren't all that uncommon .. I don't mean they were the norm, but they did happen .... course they didn't throw the caution for "phantom" debris nor did they throw the caution just because someone spun, gathered it back up and continued

IIRC there was a race at Michigan not too many yrs ago that was caution free ... damn the people complained ...

also in the "olden" days many times the winner would lap the field ....

remember Bill Elliott ( at Daytona ... probably the Firecracker 400 ) during his million dollar season, come back from 3 laps down to win .. made up the laps WITHOUT the benefit of cautions ( lucky dog )

and it was a long time ago ( so the memory is even more fuzzy ) but at Dover Richard made up something like 12 or 13 laps to win ... non of that could happen in this day-n-age

novaderrik wrote:

cwaters wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

cwaters wrote:

Took me a second to read that again with understanding. I really wish, if they need a caution for Mr. DeBris, they'd go green again as soon as the track workers are clear. No need for ten minutes of commercials and twelve yellow laps, guys. Get the crap off the track and get back to green. If the teams choose to pit, good for them. Hope it works out for them.

NASCAR has a set of rules that they follow for yellow flags... the first lap pits are closed... the second lap the lead lap cars get to pit... third lap everyone else can pit. 4th lap the pits are open for everyone and they get back in formation or dive in for fuel at the last opportunity if they think there will be a longer run to give them an advantage... then they go back to green... this assumes, of course, that the reason for the yellow has been cleared in that period of time- it can take a while to get dead cars off the track (why don't they put tow hooks on them instead of making the workers pop the hoods and hook straps to the chassis under the hood???) and pick up all the bits and pieces that flew off it or fix a crunched up SAFER barrier, so it might take more laps to clean it up. shorter tracks like Bristol or Martinsville have much shorter yellow flags than Daytona or Talledega simply due to the size of the tracks..

And that's all fine for "The Big One" but when somebody leaves the pits with a wedge wrench it still takes eleventy laps to get back to green... Go get the wrench and get back to green ASAP. It's not necessary to provide everyone a leasurly pit party for EVERY yelow flag. Hell, I've even seen them go through all that pit sequencing for a spin where the car never hit anything. At least with a big wreck, there's a lot of replays to show to help eat-up that time.

you're just being dramatic now...if someone leaves the pits with a wedge wrench, they get told to come back into the pits to get it removed and they wind up at the back of the pack- which sometimes restarts while they are on pit road or 3/4 of a lap behind the leaders. last year some teams were having problems with the gas cans and a couple of them went back out on the track with the car, but it didn't cause a delay of any kind to the race... it might have happened at some time, but i can't think of one instance where something like a wedge wrench or gas can has delayed the restart. there was one crew guy that chased a runaway tire out into the trioval infield at either Talledega or Daytona last year while the track was green. he prevented the tire from bringing out a caution, but he caused his car to have to come in for a stop and go penalty under green flag conditions for putting himself in danger like that.. and sometimes they get right back to racing- yellow flags at Bristol can be extremely short.. as in short enough to miss the restart because they went to a 60 second commercial break shortly after the yellow came out..

I think he was referring to the wrench then coming out while on track

wbjones wrote: I think he was referring to the wrench then coming out while on track

Yes. Funny how some things are so obvious when you're writing; right up until you read a response and it's like ..."Oh, guess I could have finished that thought a bit."

FWIW, I'm NOT a NASCAR hater. I used to watch all the time but only see a bit here and there nowadays. Never quite understood "the chase" format and I fell off the bandwagon about the time that came into play. I do feel there are things they could do to make the racing more appealing to ME, but then they're not hurting for fans and I don't expect them to come knocking on my door to ask me what I think any time soon.

wbjones wrote: remember Bill Elliott ( at Daytona ... probably the Firecracker 400 ) during his million dollar season, come back from 3 laps down to win .. made up the laps WITHOUT the benefit of cautions ( lucky dog )

I thought that was at Talladega when he set the overall fastest lap at 212.809. Where he was able to pull out of the draft, pass by himself and not loose positions, and is rumored to have been clocked in excess of 230+ mph on the back straight and single handily scared Nascar into restricter plates. Which also caused Nascar to want to do a video tape tear down of his car which his team refused and only allowed them to inspect parts per the rules.

You mean that race?

April 30, 1987: Bill Elliott sets the all-time NASCAR qualifying record, winning the pole for the Winston 500 at a speed of 212.809 mph (342.483 km/h) (44.998 seconds). The record still stands due strictly to the use of the carburetor restrictor plate, mandated after the 1987 season.

And look what I found about women in Nascar...

October 11, 1988: Lyn St. James sets a record closed course run for a female at 212.577 mph (342.110 km/h), driving a Ford Thunderbird.

Flight Service wrote:

wbjones wrote: remember Bill Elliott ( at Daytona ... probably the Firecracker 400 ) during his million dollar season, come back from 3 laps down to win .. made up the laps WITHOUT the benefit of cautions ( lucky dog )

I thought that was at Talladega when he set the overall fastest lap at 212.809. Where he was able to pull out of the draft, pass by himself and not loose positions, and is rumored to have been clocked in excess of 230+ mph on the back straight and single handily scared Nascar into restricter plates. Which also caused Nascar to want to do a video tape tear down of his car which his team refused and only allowed them to inspect parts per the rules. You mean that race? April 30, 1987: Bill Elliott sets the all-time NASCAR qualifying record, winning the pole for the Winston 500 at a speed of 212.809 mph (342.483 km/h) (44.998 seconds). The record still stands due strictly to the use of the carburetor restrictor plate, mandated after the 1987 season. And look what I found about women in Nascar... October 11, 1988: Lyn St. James sets a record closed course run for a female at 212.577 mph (342.110 km/h), driving a Ford Thunderbird.

that's probably correct .. my faulty memory ..

and back in the day most all the cars ( the competitive one anyway) could pull out and pass ... that was the old slingshot move ... I remember the radio announcers building excitement by calling the distance between cars and pointing out when they got within half a straight-away of the car in front and exclaiming that the chasing car was now beginning to feel the effects of the draft ... and they were correct .... the lead would start closing much quicker and then .... poooooof the pass would be made ... lots of fun to listen/watch the races in those days ... the cars were separated enough to make for good racing without the chance of "the big one " ...

In reply to wbjones:

Yeah, Elliot just had a huge advantage back in the day though. He would pull out at the end of turn 2 and tuck in at the start of turn 3 and just walk by the field.

I know he was cheating, but Nascar never caught it.

back in the day cheating wasn't so much cheating as creative rules interpreting ... remember when Harry Gant won something like 3 - 4 races in a row, and no one could figure out what he had found ? lightweight driveshaft ... as opposed to the SCCA where if doesn't say you can ... then you can't, NASCAR wasn't quite that bad back then ... Bill might just have found something that the others were a bit behind on

Elliot's brother found something in the cylinder heads (high swirl combustion chambers, IIRC) back in the 80's, and that's why they were winning. It wasn't cheating as far as I know.

Remember when the Elliot boys came up with the toe plates for the 9" axle? I thought that was a stroke of genius. Right up to when they started breaking them.

In reply to Flight Service:

You mean camber plates?

The other claim I've heard was that Elliot's T-bird somehow had been shaped in such a way that it still fit the templates where they measured it, but the airflow came off it in such a way that it closed up right behind it. Less drag - and a car that couldn't be drafted.