Stargazer wrote: This is my car. As crazy as it sounds, I think I might actually prefer underpowered cars, so the S is up for sale and I'm looking for something else.
How about an E30? 
Stargazer wrote: This is my car. As crazy as it sounds, I think I might actually prefer underpowered cars, so the S is up for sale and I'm looking for something else.
How about an E30?
AtticusTurbo27 wrote:yamaha wrote:Touché I dive a wrx which has banks and just wasn't thinking. I meant cylinder.AtticusTurbo27 wrote: wouldn't start and we pulled a chewed up spark plug out of one of the banks.I do trust you know an S2000 only has one bank........as its not a vee pattern engine
I saw your avatar and figured rotard....
But a scooby, yeah you really went a step back....
I think a yugo is the perfect option.....
Ian F wrote:Stargazer wrote: This is my car. As crazy as it sounds, I think I might actually prefer underpowered cars, so the S is up for sale and I'm looking for something else.How about an E30?
Selling one or just a suggestion? E30 is definitely a good possibility, always loved the 91 318is. I'm just looking for something cool, older and fun to drive that will hopefully respark my interest in cars and motorsports. The S2K has kind of left me with a bad taste in my mouth and I find myself getting more enjoyment out of my bone stock E36 318i.
yamaha wrote:AtticusTurbo27 wrote:I saw your avatar and figured rotard....yamaha wrote:Touché I dive a wrx which has banks and just wasn't thinking. I meant cylinder.AtticusTurbo27 wrote: wouldn't start and we pulled a chewed up spark plug out of one of the banks.I do trust you know an S2000 only has one bank........as its not a vee pattern engine
Yep, got an rx7 too, nothing conventional for me! Lol
Stargazer wrote: Selling one or just a suggestion? E30 is definitely a good possibility, always loved the 91 318is. I'm just looking for something cool, older and *fun to drive* that will hopefully respark my interest in cars and motorsports. The S2K has kind of left me with a bad taste in my mouth and I find myself getting more enjoyment out of my bone stock E36 318i.
I have an '88 325is that I bought off this forum a couple of years ago... not realizing E30's don't make for very good auto-x cars if you care about being competitive in a class. If I'm going to auto-x "for fun", then I'll run my TDI, which is a more fun car to drive than my E30. I want my next autox car to actually be competitive so I know the driver is the problem, not the car.
Ian F wrote:Stargazer wrote: Selling one or just a suggestion? E30 is definitely a good possibility, always loved the 91 318is. I'm just looking for something cool, older and *fun to drive* that will hopefully respark my interest in cars and motorsports. The S2K has kind of left me with a bad taste in my mouth and I find myself getting more enjoyment out of my bone stock E36 318i.I have an '88 325is that I bought off this forum a couple of years ago... not realizing E30's don't make for very good auto-x cars if you care about being competitive in a class. If I'm going to auto-x "for fun", then I'll run my TDI, which is a more fun car to drive than my E30. I want my next autox car to actually be competitive so I know the driver is the problem, not the car.
That's my dilemma. Class competitive autox car that is actually fun to drive.
In reply to Stargazer:
My dilemma as well. Right now I'm leaning towards a F125 kart once the E30 is sold, and eventually a F-Mod/F500 with an eye towards w2w racing.
STS Miata Stargazer? I assume you have gotten a chance to drive one? What class is it the Lotus runs SS?
Stargazer - I'd be interested to hear why the S2K left a bad taste in your mouth. Is the STR class, the car, or the mods necessary to be competitive? 950f/700r rates do sound a bit high for anything other than a competition-only ride. None of the above?
Jaynen wrote: STS Miata Stargazer? I assume you have gotten a chance to drive one? What class is it the Lotus runs SS?
All three I've seen locally were running ASP and looked stock....
Here's your answer - at least on bang/buck:
1998 e36 M3 - 90k miles - 2 owners.
It's a thoroughly developed, utterly reliable car that is competitive in NASA + SCCA TT events and a general HPDE use. I've driven it to VIR 250 miles from DC, done session after session in 105 degree weather and driven it home doing nothing more than adding gas and setting tire inflation.
I'd probably keep it forever - but I'm committing to my Radical Prosport for the next few seasons and just got a 525iT manual for my street daily. I could use the space and funds.
I've got over $30k in the car and will sell for $20k.
In reply to Matt B:
All of the above. STR is very competitive on a national level - I took it too seriously and got burnt out so I'm looking for a fresh start.
My other gripe is that the S2K in full STR trim is not fun to drive on the street at all. I don't mind the harsh ride so much, but getting it anywhere near the limit is either on the verge of death or being put in jail. Hence my comment about underpowered cars; I have a lot more fun beating the snot out of 100hp cars on the street. The S2k sits in the garage untouched 97% of the time as I'd much rather take my 318i out for a windows down cruise on a nice day. To me something seems wrong with that picture. I've thought about converting it back to stock but they don't really have a home for autocross. Admittedly I'm very impulsive but I'm realllly liking the idea of an FSP EG hatch and there just happens to be a really nice one for sale 
Just so I'm contributing something to this thread, I think an S2K with bolt ons would make a fantastic track car. I've done track days before and it's not really my thing, but I would love to wring my car out on a track. As an autocross/street car...meh.
Nice explanation - thank you sir.
While I'm derailing this thread I'll just say I miss my EG hatch.
Carry on.
Stargazer wrote: In reply to Matt B: All of the above. STR is very competitive on a national level - I took it too seriously and got burnt out so I'm looking for a fresh start. My other gripe is that the S2K in full STR trim is not fun to drive on the street at all. I don't mind the harsh ride so much, but getting it anywhere near the limit is either on the verge of death or being put in jail. Hence my comment about underpowered cars; I have a lot more fun beating the snot out of 100hp cars on the street. The S2k sits in the garage untouched 97% of the time as I'd much rather take my 318i out for a windows down cruise on a nice day. To me something seems wrong with that picture. I've thought about converting it back to stock but they don't really have a home for autocross. Admittedly I'm very impulsive but I'm realllly liking the idea of an FSP EG hatch and there just happens to be a really nice one for sale
I completely know where you are coming from. I had a turbo miata (220whp, 2200lb, full aero, custom valved, wilwoods...etc) that was flashy, stupid fast and great for "hang on for your dear life" thrills. At the same time I owned a stock NA. Enjoyed hooning and driving the stock 1.6NA much more...
That's actually what my instructors say at auto-X. They miss their NA's before they "ruined" them sure they are faster but not as much fun.
So I do wonder what I can do to my car to not ruin that I would like suspension
Note: this is when they drive my stock 1990 NA6
Stargazer wrote: The S2k sits in the garage untouched 97% of the time as I'd much rather take my 318i out for a windows down cruise on a nice day.
A guy in my region has a S2000 that's been prepped to the 9's for STR. His DD is a stock NB Miata (former CS car) and he also has a ITR once prepped for DS. Last year he bought a truck to tow the S2K car to events when he needed to bring more than would fit in the trunk (his fiance co-drives). The ITR has been sort of for sale for over a year now...
In many ways, I think the "right car" can be sometimes dictating by individual familiarity. I'm becoming a bit burnt out of car wrenching and have basically zero desire to "learn me" another car. The E30 and then the g/f's Volvo wagon really drove this home - I really dread working on them. So along that train of thought, if I were to buy another "toy" car that could be a back-up DD, I'd lean towards either a MINI or a VW MkIV. Not because they are particularly great cars, but because I already know them very well. Among my many project day-dreams is a ALH TDi prepped for FSP in auto-x and TT/HC. Would it be competitive against a well-prepped FSP Civic? Probably not. But it would be a known entity for my current skills and tools. Of course, that's part of the reason behind wanting a kart. If I tire of it for awhile, I can just stuff it into the shed and forget about it for a month or two. The E30 is constantly in the way and thus harder to put on a back-burner. Plus, cars really don't like sitting as much as that car does (weeks and months at a time).
In reply to motomoron:
Thats actually a pretty good deal for what it is plus being ready to go.
Jaynen wrote: That's actually what my instructors say at auto-X. They miss their NA's before they "ruined" them sure they are faster but not as much fun. So I do wonder what I can do to my car to not ruin that I would like suspension Note: this is when they drive my stock 1990 NA6
In my opinion, the "fun" factor comes from the dynamics of the car and the relative difficulty with which you can drive on the edge/limit. Now a stock or nearly stock car, moves a lot under you, like a rollercoaster and the limit is not only progressive and easy to approach and maintain, but it also has a wider range or delta. Kind of like racing on a street tire vs a race tire. The street tire will maintain its peak grip over a wider range of slip angle than a race tire. which makes it easier to keep the car near the limit of adhesion, whereas the race tire, when it lets go, it goes real quick. So a stiff, fast car on race tires, will require a lot more concentration and the consequences become much more violent, because the car lets go faster, gives you less time to react and goes off at a faster speed.
I have been through this cycle and see many others go through it. You buy a car > tune it > start thinking wouldnt it be nice to have a DD that can also double as a race car > work on it some more, making it faster, but less comfortable and forgiving > get burned out by wrenching or becoming too serious about the competition and no longer having fun > walk away, or realise that the best way to do it is with a stock DD and a separate race car.
I always wondered why many race car drivers drive such mundane street cars (aka Randy P). Well after kind of doing it, you realise that you love the racing, but on the street (even if you love driving) the uncomfortable, harsh ride of a compromise car is not worth it, especially considering you will still spend 99% of the mileage driving it on the street. So you are making the car more optimum for the least time that will benefit you.
So what can you do? Keep the car soft, probably leave it as is. At most don't make it too stiff or run too serious of a tire. Do not try to make your DD a race car as well. Most importantly, don't try to be competitive with your DD. As a hobby car even, its a lot more fun than when you start to try to be competitive.
I felt the same way about the STR cars I drove. Sure they cut great lap times, but felt dull and boring. Especially with the huge front bars most guys run. It totally kills the steering feel and response. So my car has flipped stock springs ( slightly stiffer rear springs put onthe front and vise/versa), OTS konis and a whiteline front bar. The car still feels like stock and is a hoot to drive. No, the car will not be nationally competitive, but who cares! It makes me happy in my pants to drive so I'm going to keep it that way.
There seems to be a point where the fast-fun ratio gets way out of line and it's just not fun anymore. Heck, I co drove a base model mini Cooper last weekend and had more fun in that car than almost anything I had autocrossed before.
motomoron wrote: Here's your answer - at least on bang/buck: 1998 e36 M3 - 90k miles - 2 owners. - Every wear item replaced w/o regard to cost or time. - AST 4100 struts/shocks / UUC+H&R anti-roll bars w/ adj end links/adj R LCAs/Vorshlag camber plates/Mason bar/X brace. - SS lines/PFC01pads/Motul 600 fluid/Bimmerworld cooling ducts/aluminum undertray. - Conforti intake+software/M50 manifold/underdrive pulleys/VAC oil pump shaft(red loctited+safety wired)/VAC oil sump baffle/light flywheel+Clutchmasters M5 setup. - Full Zionsville aluminum race cooling setup w/ 16" SPAL puller fan w/ 2 speed dual solenoid power. - Bimmerworld dual fuel pump anti-starvation setup. - Rogue Engineering finned/extra capacity diff cover. - UUC urethane engine+trans mounts/AKG diff bushings/Powerflex subframe+F CA bushings. - Weld-in reinforcements to front subframe+R anti-roll bar mounts. - HSM/TC Kline 4 point roll-bar, powdercaoted/Schroth Profi 3 HANS belts/Cobra Suzuka Pro seats on VAC mounts both sides/Momo wheel. - 1 set Kosei K1 8.5x17 w/ 245 Star Specs - 1 set stock BMW staggered 7.5+8.5 w/ Michelin Pilot Sports - 1 set Apex ARC8 9x17 w 245 Hoosier R6 - 1 set unmounted Toyo RA1 - Full excellent stock black leather interior w/ Vader seats - New pair stock LCAs, spares, fluids, filters, books, service records, setup assistance, special tools. It's a thoroughly developed, utterly reliable car that is competitive in NASA + SCCA TT events and a general HPDE use. I've driven it to VIR 250 miles from DC, done session after session in 105 degree weather and driven it home doing nothing more than adding gas and setting tire inflation. I'd probably keep it forever - but I'm committing to my Radical Prosport for the next few seasons and just got a 525iT manual for my street daily. I could use the space and funds. I've got over $30k in the car and will sell for $20k.
Beautiful. Another great answer to the question.
Let me know of the ARC-8s ever come for sale.
Decided on an FRS. For some reason s2k prices have been only going up and become unfriendly to me. S2ks that I am interested in are knocking on FRS prices except not being new and would put more financial stress on me than the FRS, which could be financed at a lower rate, and take an easy trade in. Test drove one, was pretty pleased with it. I have always said my FA5 civic was nearly perfect as a DD, just missing that crucial RWD component. I think this should fix my problem
As a fellow STR mid-pack guy, I agree- the competitiveness of the class actually takes the fun out of autocrossing. Last year, I was at the point of worrying about tire pressures and spring rates more than actually driving the courses when I suddenly found myself say 'this is freaking stupid'. The next session I put my snows on, was completely uncompetitive, but had an absolute blast powersliding gates and scaring corner workers... That's what does it for me. I respect and appreciate serious auto-x'ers and the time and effort they put into it, don't get me wrong... but sometimes I just want to kill cones and generally hoon it up a little bit rather than worrying about whether to left foot brake a gate to gain an extra tenth on the clock or not.
Decent choice, I would have mentioned a Toyobaru if I knew you were willing to stretch the budget
There is massive potential for added grip from the factory with wider wheels and good tires. You might also want to change to a single-mass flywheel.
The car is great, and I think we are fortunate that a manufacturer is able to offer a car like this, at this price range particularly. Im not going to lie that as a sports car its not as great as the s2000, but the s2000 was a 45k car if I recall correctly and you can no longer buy them new. In Canada, this car is cheaper than the NC Mx-5 new, and about the same as the CIvic Si. The price gap for these cars between USA and CAD is the smallest I have seen, also the discount to graduates from scion helped entice me. Probably picking up a white one this weekend. The car is literally what I have been wishing for the last couple years, I think for the pricepoint, they could have done nothing better. I wanted something light, naturally aspirated, simple enough to work on myself (thats why the new BMW's completely scare me away), rwd and fun.
Things I liked:
Steering feel was great, no, actually it was fantastic. Better than e92 m3 fantastic (IMO). Shifter was great (still not as good as my civic, but that is honestly the best shifter I have ever had, from the 30+ sports/race cars I have driven). Stock seats arent bad, better than most but I have been in a bucket for the last two years so I don't think they had as much of an impact on me as others seem to feel. However, I love that they are cloth, leather seats should never, ever, ever be offered in sports cars. The steering wheel has a really nice heft, in fact, that is probably the one defining interior feature I remember very fondly from the test drive. I love how playful the stock car is, I got the tail out no problem on the test drive and the inner hoon in me absolutely loves this. I used to go through a set of tires quite often in my NA miata just because I would slide it all over the place as soon as it was damp enough to break the rear wheels, the car is a joy to toss and gives you all the feedback you need to catch it light years in advance, or maintain the slip angle. Its got a bit of widowmaker instinct and in this day and age of every car understeering like a pig I love that. I love the mileage it gets and was shocked to find out how poor the mileage on the s2k is. Pedal positioning is nice, brakes gave decent feedback, don't recall how the clutch felt which is probably a good thing.
Things that I was not impressed with:
Engine note, especially after being spoiled by the k20, my favorite 4 cylinder engine; is pretty boring. Its flat and does not develop dynamically throughout the rpm. Also it does not have the same pickup and willingness to rev. The power is what I expected, and I know the civic is no faster (a tad slower actually), but it just sounds and feels glorious. My eye for detail caught cheap plastics in areas in between the nice feeling stuff (wheel, shifter). However, that is expected in an entry level sports car, I feel they made an excellent choice of compromise, and cheaped out in the right spots. Again, I can see how someone might complain about the radio, but for me its more than adequate and quality didn't bother me at all as I expected something like this going in (much better than what they offer in the MX5, IMO).
Summary:
From a guy who wishes he could DD a Cayman S, this is the next best thing and unlike the Cayman, within my budget. I think they truly got this car 'right'. They spent the money where it counts, and developed what is important to someone who appreciates driving just for driving. The engine, albeit boring is naturally aspirated screamer and I think it already has shown to have potential for bolt-ons. As an engineer and having an understanding that some compromises were to be made, I think they prioritized excellently. The car was built from the ground up as a sports car, and it shows in the basic dynamics compared to something that started econobox and is hopped up to be "sporty" like my Si. Furthermore, I believe because of this approach in design, the car has a lot more potential with some small modifications. The car is what I wanted, and has nothing I didn't want. A basic, back to basics, fun and affordable sports car!
I frick*n love this car. It has everything I want and nothing I don't. Best sports car under 50k hands down. Carry on
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