De Tomaso, in a “relentless pursuit of excellence and with our sights set on an American Automotive Renaissance,” is also looking to collaborate with other notable manufacturers already operating in the U.S.—Tesla is mentioned—in order to “define the superior in automotive excellence, while renewing unparalleled pride in America’s automotive ingenuity.”
Does anybody else see Elio as a good fit here?
I haven't heard what's actually better than the 351C at the time, just examples of other engines that might have worked, in cars built in extremely limited numbers. I always like the Mangusta better anyway, myself, especially in the non-American versions with the prettier headlight setup.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:A 401 CJ said:In reply to rustomatic :
I always thought he messed up with that choice. But I guess if Lincoln Mercury is going to sell your cars you gotta dance with who brung ya.
FoMoCo helped develop the car and I believe partially funded the factory and all sorts of things to make the Pantera a real product that wouldn't be a complete embarrassment. Eventually they walked away. It would be interesting to know how much money Ford burned on this little adventure.
As for the 351C, if it's 1970 and your car company had decided to go with an American engine for a mid-engined sports car, I don't know if there were that many better options out there. Boss 302? Some Ram Air Pontiac?
In theory, the assistance can happen again. Back a decade ago, we were supplying information to a company in LA that was planning on putting the 3.5l GTDI engine from the SHO into a mid-engined hybrid super car. I think they got as far as making a prototype. We were supporting their efforts, as best we could- and I think we would have stepped in to help some of the emissions work, too (at least I think we would have).
The question would be who's powertrain would they use?
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:pres589 (djronnebaum) said:A 401 CJ said:In reply to rustomatic :
I always thought he messed up with that choice. But I guess if Lincoln Mercury is going to sell your cars you gotta dance with who brung ya.
FoMoCo helped develop the car and I believe partially funded the factory and all sorts of things to make the Pantera a real product that wouldn't be a complete embarrassment. Eventually they walked away. It would be interesting to know how much money Ford burned on this little adventure.
As for the 351C, if it's 1970 and your car company had decided to go with an American engine for a mid-engined sports car, I don't know if there were that many better options out there. Boss 302? Some Ram Air Pontiac?
In theory, the assistance can happen again. Back a decade ago, we were supplying information to a company in LA that was planning on putting the 3.5l GTDI engine from the SHO into a mid-engined hybrid super car. I think they got as far as making a prototype. We were supporting their efforts, as best we could- and I think we would have stepped in to help some of the emissions work, too (at least I think we would have).
The question would be who's powertrain would they use?
I have some friends that worked on a project that sounds very similar to what you describe (including the manufacturer tie in). Astronomical name... The lead engineer is now involved with some electric muscle car project you may have heard of.
Slippery (Forum Supporter) said:Horacio had Fangio's friendship to open doors for him. Especially Mercedes'.
Pagani is only car manufacturer that can buy Mercedes engines directly from the factory and use them with their full support, that's thanks to Fangio.
Aston Martin?
In reply to stafford1500 :
I'm sure it's the same thing. A quick google search suggests that they are still in business, but I've honestly have never seen any single item from Kepler Motorcars.
It's not a secret- they point out the 3.5 EB engine in the rear.
With Chevy now making a mid-engine Vette, and Ford just finishing a mid engined GT40, American based powertrains are out there.
Which would avoid one of the major costs of Elio.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:Slippery (Forum Supporter) said:Horacio had Fangio's friendship to open doors for him. Especially Mercedes'.
Pagani is only car manufacturer that can buy Mercedes engines directly from the factory and use them with their full support, that's thanks to Fangio.Aston Martin?
Pretty sure MB has a stake in Aston.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:pres589 (djronnebaum) said:A 401 CJ said:In reply to rustomatic :
I always thought he messed up with that choice. But I guess if Lincoln Mercury is going to sell your cars you gotta dance with who brung ya.
FoMoCo helped develop the car and I believe partially funded the factory and all sorts of things to make the Pantera a real product that wouldn't be a complete embarrassment. Eventually they walked away. It would be interesting to know how much money Ford burned on this little adventure.
As for the 351C, if it's 1970 and your car company had decided to go with an American engine for a mid-engined sports car, I don't know if there were that many better options out there. Boss 302? Some Ram Air Pontiac?
In theory, the assistance can happen again. Back a decade ago, we were supplying information to a company in LA that was planning on putting the 3.5l GTDI engine from the SHO into a mid-engined hybrid super car. I think they got as far as making a prototype. We were supporting their efforts, as best we could- and I think we would have stepped in to help some of the emissions work, too (at least I think we would have).
The question would be who's powertrain would they use?
For what it's worth, this DeTomaso will be powered by a 700hp supercharged 5.0 from Ford/Roush.
The parent company uses the same carbon monocoque in another vehicle with a Ferrari V12 powerplant too.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:I haven't heard what's actually better than the 351C at the time, just examples of other engines that might have worked, in cars built in extremely limited numbers. I always like the Mangusta better anyway, myself, especially in the non-American versions with the prettier headlight setup.
Back then the best option would have probably been the Chevrolet zl1 427. Ultimate big block power numbers for the day with the advantage of aluminum block weight. Plus lots of experience in mid engine use with it in can am and endurance racing.
I remember back in 1970 when the Pantera came out in Lincoln Mercury Dealers. There was an ad in the back of Road and Track showing a yellow Pantera and a price of ten thousand dollars. My parents would take us out to dinner on Eldorado Street in Stockton, California where the car dealers had plate glass showrooms. Gene Gabbard Lincoln Mercury had a Pantera in the front window and a couple of German Capris towards the back with the big Mercurys and Lincolns. Across the street at Travale Porsche Audi a 911S was on display along with a 914-6 and an Audi 100LS. On the other side of town Norman Nock Motors offered brand new Jaguar XKEs, Triumph TR6s, GT6s and Spitfires as well as MGBs and Midgets plus lots of sports car racing swag and applications to join the local SCCA Chapter. Across the street from the British Flag at Stockton Datsun you could test drive the new 240Z.
Cars were so much cooler back then. Sports cars were everywhere and nobody knew of Minivans and SUVs.
In reply to MotorsportsGordon : The 427 big block of that day was all cast iron, there were aluminum heads available.
The ZL1 might be up there but that's another "they made dozens of those, not hundreds" situations.
It doesn't really matter 50 years on anyway.
MotorsportsGordon said:A 401 CJ said:In reply to rustomatic :
I always thought he messed up with that choice. But I guess if Lincoln Mercury is going to sell your cars you gotta dance with who brung ya.
His previous cars the Vallelunga and Mangusta used ford engines aswell. Mangusta is Italian for mongoose which is the animal that can kill a cobra.
That makes sense. A Cobra at heart so it can kill itself. Now, maybe it swallowed the Cobra. That I could believe.
iceracer said:In reply to MotorsportsGordon : The 427 big block of that day was all cast iron, there were aluminum heads available.
The zl1 is all aluminum
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:The ZL1 might be up there but that's another "they made dozens of those, not hundreds" situations.
It doesn't really matter 50 years on anyway.
The engine could be bought/ordered over the counter at any Chevy dealership though.
I think a 340 Mopar would have worked well. Lightweight and still made half decent power after smog.
Or 401 AMC. Those always ran better than they had any right to. I’m talking post smog of course. Everything ran pretty well in 1970.
A 401 CJ said:I think a 340 Mopar would have worked well. Lightweight and still made half decent power after smog.
Or 401 AMC. Those always ran better than they had any right to. I’m talking post smog of course. Everything ran pretty well in 1970.
The AMX/3 body mold was sent to Italian grand tourer maker Giotto Bizzarrini, whose Turin facility hand made driveable mid-engined, steel bodied cars. Built on a 105.3 in (2,675 mm) wheelbase, the Bizzarrini prototypes used the AMC 390 cu in (6.4 L) V8 and an Italian OTO Melara four-speed transaxle. The AMX/3 is considered one of Bizzarrini's car-masterpieces.[106]
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