Diesel sucks.

On this odd note, has Cummins caved to the fed yet on the DEF thing......I knew they were refusing to design them for it.

We have had our 2012 MB Sprinter for 18 months.

While there arent many gasoline versions in the US for comparison, the one person I am familiar with that has one operates a small fleet of Sprinters and his diesel models get around 20mpg versus 13mpg for his gasoline or about 35% better. The local fuel prices right now have regular (87) gas about 10% less than diesel at the station where I normally buy (Irving in Eastern Mass) and that is typical. I get 22-24mpg with the van and 16-18mpg with a 3700 pound trailer.

I use about 3 gallons of DEF fluid over 10,000 miles. It costs from around $4 to around $7 per gallon depending on where you buy it. You can do the math too but that amounts to around 1-2 cents per mile.

MB Blue-TEC engines all meet the current EPA emissions requirements. Note: Emission requirements for light and medium duty vehicles are identical between gasoline and diesel except diesel has the added particulate cap that is not applied to gasoline engines.

The ONLY think I have found that I do not like about these low emission diesels is that idling will kill the EGR and DPF. That means, no long warmups at idle to get the interior warm on a cold morning, or leaving it idling to keep the interior warm or cool. The fact is that the MB engine it is extremely slow to warm up anyway unless it it is driven so the first thing is probably moot - factories add electric heaters into the ventilation system on many vehicles now for this cold start period if the air coming out of the vent system is way below the climate control setting.

The Sprinter has no diesel smell or clatter and gobs of torque for a relatively small engine.

One is well advised to shop carefully for fuel - favoring higher volume diesel dealers - so as to avoid old or poor fuel that can result in a flatbed trip to the dealers. This problem is likely to decrease as diesel becomes a larger part of the daily car scene in the US and not just the providence of truckers. Now if they would just get the fuel cetane numbers up. Many stations are probably around 40 (and the operators have no idea what they have). My Sprinter runs on 40 but noticeably better when it is over 45. I keep a bottle of cetane boost under the seat for those times I fill up at an unknown station or I feel the power is down and noise up (both indications of low cetane). It usually takes a couple bucks worth of the boost to get it back to "happy" in those cases.

I just checked - Detroit area Diesel fuel ranges from $3.70 to $4.29 a gallon. Regular is averaging $3.13. So diesel is between 17 to 27% more expensive than regular here, meaning a gasoline engined vehicle only has to get about 37 to 42 mpg to cost the same as a diesel that gets 50. And that doesn't factor in much higher purchase price.

In reply to bastomatic:

You're also talking about winter blends......gasoline goes down in the winter while diesel goes up. They have to add antigel to the diesel while they add filler crap to the gasoline because they can get away with it in lower temperatures. Not a fair comparasin.

The day I put a deposit down on my Mk6 Golf TDI I test drove a CR-Z and GTI. The CRZ was slow and noisy on the highway. I really liked the GTI, but couldn't get over the 'Detroit' wheels on the GTI and the TDI just felt quicker in normal driving.

It is absolutely effortless to drive as a dd. I set the cruise at 75 and waft along with the turbo singing at 2100rpm in 6th gear. I've never seen the speedo budge with the cruise on regardless of the incline. If there are other vehicles around me also cruising at 75, I will put a quarter mile on them by the time I reach the top of a mountain because they will have slowed down. Even driving a hemi Ram 1500 around felt gutless in comparison. It was constantly hunting for gears and the only time it felt powerful was when you reved it up, which rather defeats the point of having a big v8. In comparison, once I get on the highway I stick it in 6th gear and it stays in 6th unless I have to slow down. There is no need to ever downshift to pass.

In reply to Yani:

Who's going to put any credibility in the opinions of someone with your avatar?

I really wish Jag would bring over the XF diesel. 440lb ft of torque, 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and 46 mpg= winning.

yamaha wrote: In reply to bravenrace: Inhalation of anything can lead to those problems, but that wasn't widely known back then.

Doctors used to advertise for cigarettes too.

Good for locomotives & earth movers.

Cars in a country without obscene gas taxes - not so much.

Prior to this Sprinter I owned a 2002 RAM 2500 4x4 with 8.0 V10 (about the same torque as the RAM Cummins). My RAM got 12mpg on a good day and it was not uncommon for the Cummins equipped RAMs to get 20 or more under similar conditions. We had the V10 because the wife cannot stand the smell and clatter of an old school diesel.

After owning a 3/4 ton gasser, I wish I had some turbo diesel for towing. Power = safety

My son in law runs a handy man business and uses his truck for business. after running diesels for a few years he figured it was cheaper to run a gas truck.

Just some numbers we observed with 3 trucks and near 300K miles. Last truck has 108K with 81K towing so far

Current averages:

Gas unloaded - $.248/mile fuel (based on average mileage and current fuel prices)

Diesel unloaded - $0.241/mile fuel

Gas loaded (8+K#/102 wide enclosed) - $0.386/mile

Diesel loaded (same trailer) - $0.334/mile

Long story short : Diesel = $5,200/100K towing miles and $900/100K unloaded miles in your pocket. If it ain't loaded, it ain't worth it

Sucks, no.

My tow rig is a F350 with a 460. Plenty of torque, simple as a stick, and reliable as gravity. It gets driven about 3000-4000 miles a year so fuel economy was a moot point. I would never recoup the extra buy in for a diesel. Having a $10k-$15k diesel truck sitting in the yard is stupid when a $3K gas truck will do the same thing. $7000-$12000 will buy a lot of gas.

I also wouldn't want one for a DD. The fuel stinks. Diesel pumps are always the nastiest place at the gas station, not counting the bathrooms. I'll stick with gas powered DDs.

bastomatic wrote: I just checked - Detroit area Diesel fuel ranges from $3.70 to $4.29 a gallon. Regular is averaging $3.13. So diesel is between 17 to 27% more expensive than regular here, meaning a gasoline engined vehicle only has to get about 37 to 42 mpg to cost the same as a diesel that gets 50. And that doesn't factor in much higher purchase price.

I think the $4.29 a gallon is near airports. I was shocked at how much diesel can fluctuate from station to station. I know people that will drive across town because regular is 2 cents cheaper. Diesel can be 15 cents cheaper 1 mile away. I just paid $3.90 this morning. More yes, but I have less maintenance items (plugs, on new stuff, add cap, rotor, and wires on stuff from a few years ago) to change. Not a big deal, but it adds up. Then there's the resale value. You'll see much higher return when you sell it, and if you don't sell it, well, again, my lowest mileage diesel is going to turn 250,000 miles in a few weeks. I'd pay more for a vehicle that I can drive for 500,000 miles. Take a hybrid that far and you'll have a few battery packs to replace, and I think a few of those require premium fuel.

I like my diesel F250 because of the resale. Bought it for $9800 with 240k on it (advertised at $12,900), did the front end, resealed the oil cooler, and a rebuilt starter. I would wager with it being a clean, southern 7.3 Powerstroke with a Lariat package and 4x4, I could easily sell it for $12k plus now with 270k on it. Gas truck value drops pretty sharp after 150k miles, diesels pretty much flatline and as was stated, clean older trucks are going up in value because of the simplicity of the earlier engines.

bastomatic wrote: One argument I can't dispute is MOAR TORQUES.

I can.

Here's my argument:

I can not think of any example of turbodiesel that makes more torque than an equivalent sized gas engine running an equivalent amount of boost would make.

"But," says the oilburner fan, "gas engines can't handle that much boost!"

Counterargument: Build a gas engine as thoroughly overkill beefy with respect to internals and cooling system, and I betcha it would.

yamaha wrote: In reply to bastomatic: You're also talking about winter blends......gasoline goes down in the winter while diesel goes up. They have to add antigel to the diesel while they add filler crap to the gasoline because they can get away with it in lower temperatures. Not a fair comparasin.

That's about normal year round. The largest disparity I've seen was 50%. Gasoline was half the price of Diesel.

Now, I've seen places were they were actually close to the same price. But that is there and where I am here, Diesel is consistently 20-30% more expensive.

So, regionality plays a part as well.

Funny how pragmatic we are about utility vehicles, yet we can justify the ridiculous cars we feed cash on a weekly basis.

The argument for diesel....more power and torque and fuel economy. Do you need it? Irrelevant if you want it. I don't need a sports car hobby or a diesel truck and somehow I wound up with both.

Quite simply hybrids are for Bob Costas and you are not 'murican unless you are re-killing an already dead creature again!

Tyler H wrote: Do you need it? Irrelevant if you want it.

Ayup.

Although, I find it somewhat funny when people pay $50-70k for a truck and then whinge about having to add a few bucks worth of DEF to it every few thousand miles.

Meanwhile, the amount of 2-stroke oil I have to add to my rotary costs 30-40 cents per gallon of gasoline.

Knurled wrote:

Tyler H wrote: Do you need it? Irrelevant if you want it.

Ayup. Although, I find it somewhat funny when people pay $50-70k for a truck and then whinge about having to add a few bucks worth of DEF to it every few thousand miles. Meanwhile, the amount of 2-stroke oil I have to add to my rotary costs 30-40 cents per gallon of gasoline.

Diesel bros seem to like the Wal-Mart Tec 2 two stroke oil. Some of those guys put 8+oz a tank in.

wclark wrote: Note: Emission requirements for light and medium duty vehicles are identical between gasoline and diesel except diesel has the added particulate cap that is not applied to gasoline engines.

That's not correct- the gas engines do have to meet the PM standard just like diesels do. For PFI cars, it's so easy that that it's never reported- as long as you are well under half the standard. And PFI cars are generally less than 1mg/mi vs a 10mg/mi standard.

Gas DI cars, on the other hand, do have PM issues, and some are high enough that they have to be reported.

As for the previous comments about Cummins not wanting to be forced to use urea- I'd have to check the rules, but I'm pretty sure that it's not required to use the DEF. Many have claimed to be capable of meeting the standard without it. Alas, nobody has done it, yet. I'll have to look that up.

Other than that, no reason to get into this- it's more a matter of opinion for diesels. And I'm very thankful for every Super Duty we sell with a diesel engine.

8 ounce gets me five gallons or so on the street, and if I can find Speedway oil at $5/gallon that works out to 25 cents per gallon. But in competition, it gets a richer mixture of yummy Lucas synthetic on the trip down and in the tank for racin'.

I have the link somewhere but not available to me at the moment, but a dirtbike magazine was testing different oil/fuel mix ratios and found that there was a lag effect. There were measurable gains in increasing oil, but the weird thing was that it wasn't immediate, and the gains took a while to taper off after going to a leaner oil mix.

Rotaries aren't 125cc dirtbike engines, but I did find more power through better oiling, so... there's that.

In reply to alfadriver:

Cummins may very well still not run it.......both Chevy and Ford are. What is more pointless is that the diesel engine emissions carried over to agricultural machinery as well......