Do you consider it "racing"?

tuna55 wrote: People tell me about how Lemons isn't racing either.

LOLWUT?

That's like the racingest racing. Multiple cars on track, with weird paint jobs, sometimes making contact, there's cheating, loud noises, binge drinking afterwards, what more do they want!?!?

It's racing. Extremely low pressure one car at a time compare times for bragging rights racing. It's not road racing. It's not drag racing. It's not Pikes Peak. It is what it is. If you don't enjoy the comradery, the driving that we get to do, and the silliness of driving around a bunch of cones in a field, then that's fine, but it doesn't make it not racing.
Would you subject your car and yourself to the same things if it weren't timed? I wouldn't.

GameboyRMH wrote:

tuna55 wrote: People tell me about how Lemons isn't racing either.

LOLWUT? That's like the racingest racing. Multiple cars on track, with weird paint jobs, sometimes making contact, there's cheating, loud noises, binge drinking afterwards, what more do they want!?!?

My wife, for instance, doesn't think anything is a racecar if it started as a regular street car. She's weird, though. Obviously. Because, you know, she's my wife.

mazdeuce wrote: Would you subject your car and yourself to the same things if it weren't timed? I wouldn't.

I would! and I do it frequently!

I remember sitting next to one of the old grumpies from WOR at one of the car shows a year or two ago and he was dismissing AutoX as not really being racing while at the same time talking about how volunteering to work at a club race was the absolutely pinnacle of racing involvement that an SCCA member could aspire to. I get volunteering at a club race or whatever, don't get me wrong. In fact, after hearing tale of Jerry's adventures at Mid Ohio, I want to actually figure out how to work that into my schedule. But this dude's attitude was more like: Why would you waste your time competing in an autox at all since that isn't real racing, you should be volunteering to wave a flag on a corner - THAT's racing!

ProDarwin wrote: Is Stage Rally, WRC, etc. racing? Pikes Peak?

Appleseed wrote: land speed racing

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Isle of Man TT

I feel like I should be surprised that even here there are people whose definition of "racing" specifically excludes all of these as being not-racing...But I find myself only surprised by my complete and total lack of surprise.

Asinine people are asinine. That's all I got for this discussion.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Jerry wrote: I've heard this from a few other Club racers in my region. Mostly other grumpy men. What do you think?

When all I knew was auto-x I took offense and defended it when people said that. Then I did time attack. Then I went wheel to wheel racing. Now I consider it the cheap, safe alternative to real racing. THe kickball of motorsports

^Me too^.

My progression in car-based motorsports - I used to road race motorcycles, then karts - began in a low-pressure, no classes, just index autocross series. Then I graduated to SCCA STU class which was much more serious, then I did SCCA PDX and NASA HPDE events, then instructing at PDX and doing NASA TT events, then getting a "real race car", taking SCCA driver's school and doing a regional club racing series. I was in D sports racer the first season, C sports racer the next 2, earning a series class championship the second, and just finished this season in prototype 2 class.

The level of commitment, preparation, time and risk is orders of magnatude greater for me in wheel-to-wheel than it was in any of the other things. At no point in autocrossing did I feel as though I had to genuinely go much faster than I was comfortable going to beat someone. Labor Day weekend at Summit, 2013 I learned it was possible (on tires in their first 4 heat cycles) to do Summit Point turn 4 wide open from before the apex of turn 3 to the braking zone in 5. You can't half-ass this. You're COMITTED. Lift and you'll be in a tire wall at 110mph, Early apex and you're finished. I brake at the 200' board at 142mph then pull 1.9 Gs in T1, lap after lap.

I did an SCCA Majors series race in August. The Saturday main was 30 minutes, timed. This was 25 laps from green to checkers. 250 corners, stretching my personal limits every time, and I was managing traffic ahead of me while being cognizant of faster cars lapping me. The event required a week of prep, a practice day and 3 days of qualifying and racing. I was mentally and physically exhausted afterward, for days, And I went in in really good shape physically, and very well rested and hydrated.

Now I think that what I do - running the quickest car in my series - is barely racing compared to the guys who do majors. I know some serious national autocrossers who travel nationally and build new cars every season. And technically it's racing - I've tried it and I'm not good enough at finding thousandths of a second under pressure. But seeing who's willing to go 20' deeper when you're side by side, 2' apart at 140 mph? That's really racing.

In reply to wae:

I know exactly who you speak of. He's of the Grump's at meetings that frequently espouses the same thing every time. berkeley you crotchety old fart. Really helps bring in the new people too with that attitude.

Just to throw in a mix as someone else did. A Race car's definition. In my opinion, it is something caged, and built to a specific rule set, but I see HPDE/TT/Autox cars marked as "race cars" all the time. This bothers the E36 M3 outta me for NO reason.

DaveEstey wrote: Gotta love people who race on dedicated tracks with massive runoff space and safety barriers talking down about autocross being the "safe" sport. Man up. Go hillclimbing/rallying.

Have you ever gone road racing? It's funny how the hate goes both ways. Autocross is stupid safe. Hillclimb? definitely more dangerous than autox, more dangerous than VIR, but more dangerous than LimeRock?? no way.

motomoron wrote: You can't half-ass this. You're COMITTED. Lift and you'll be in a tire wall at 110mph, Early apex and you're finished. I brake at the 200' board at 142mph then pull 1.9 Gs in T1, lap after lap. ~~ and I was managing traffic ahead of me while being cognizant of faster cars lapping me. The event required a week of prep, a practice day and 3 days of qualifying and racing ~~~ seeing who's willing to go 20' deeper when you're side by side, 2' apart at 140 mph? That's really racing.

Yeah. That is the thing, right? The luxury of thinking about how to drive fast is a given. You have to be so far beyond thinking about how to drive the car well that you can be fully committed, over the limit at triple digit speeds, dodging faster/slower classes as a background process and only consciously focusing on how to beat the other guy(s) on the minutia between you. The challenges that used to plague you... like going flat thru 3/4/5 at Summit... you can dial up and order a pizza while doing it if there isn't any traffic.

Auto-x is technically racing... there is a clock. I see it more as a "game of skill" though. It isn't what I think of when I think of racing anymore. I don't want that to sound like I'm dissing on it though. It is where I learned the basics to get where I'm competing today. There is a lot to be said for a safe way to learn precision control while having a time slip to measure against other people. Like the score sheet from bowling (I kid!!)

When I was a kid I used to race airplanes across my yard. I'd wait until they were directly overhead, and then I'd sprint across the yard--- look up and see if I beat them. In my 5 year old mind, I was racing, and you couldn't have convinced me otherwise. I'm sure this amused my neighbors.......

It's semantics------ if you think it's racing--- it is. Don't let the grumpy old bastard get you down.

D_Eclipse9916 wrote: Just to throw in a mix as someone else did. A Race car's definition. In my opinion, it is something caged, and built to a specific rule set, but I see HPDE/TT/Autox cars marked as "race cars" all the time. This bothers the E36 M3 outta me for NO reason.

My auto-x car is built to a specific rule set. Wouldn't that make it a racecar by your standards?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Auto-x is technically racing... there is a clock. I see it more as a "game of skill" though. It isn't what I think of when I think of racing anymore. I don't want that to sound like I'm dissing on it though. It is where I learned the basics to get where I'm competing today. There is a lot to be said for a safe way to learn precision control while having a time slip to measure against other people. Like the score sheet from bowling (I kid!!)

Every time you try to defend your statement I'm reminded of Adrian's "twatmonkey" reference...

I've explained autox as downhill skiing for cars. Competing against the clock is "racing against time". Autox is not on the same level as wheel to wheel, but it is still racing, in my mind.

Joe Gearin wrote: Don't let the grumpy old bastard get you down.

Who gives a berkeley? Take Joe's advice and think of it what you want to think about it. Who cares what someone else thinks about what you do?

D_Eclipse9916 wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: Gotta love people who race on dedicated tracks with massive runoff space and safety barriers talking down about autocross being the "safe" sport. Man up. Go hillclimbing/rallying.

Have you ever gone road racing? It's funny how the hate goes both ways. Autocross is stupid safe. Hillclimb? definitely more dangerous than autox, more dangerous than VIR, but more dangerous than LimeRock?? no way.

Yes, I've been road racing at NHMS.

I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

Limerock may be "dangerous" for a road course. But there's still run offs and safety barriers. It's wide, there's no crown in the road surface. Hillclimb safety barriers are trees that keep you from going down a ravine or off the side of a mountain. If you leave the road surface you are in a rock or tree. Same for rally.

Autox is maddening to do well, with a steep learning curve. I respect the enthusiasts and their skills. A good autox-er generally has the car control skills to go up the motorsport ladder where the stakes are higher. A talented "race car driver" may not have the skills and patience to excel at autox, going the other way.

I'll just call it all "Motorsport" and be done with it. Beats spectating, which is why even Mr. Grumpy is hoofing cones and not mowing his lawn, no matter what he says.

DaveEstey wrote:

D_Eclipse9916 wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: Gotta love people who race on dedicated tracks with massive runoff space and safety barriers talking down about autocross being the "safe" sport. Man up. Go hillclimbing/rallying.

Have you ever gone road racing? It's funny how the hate goes both ways. Autocross is stupid safe. Hillclimb? definitely more dangerous than autox, more dangerous than VIR, but more dangerous than LimeRock?? no way.

Yes, I've been road racing at NHMS. I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong. Limerock may be "dangerous" for a road course. But there's still run offs and safety barriers. It's wide, there's no crown in the road surface. Hillclimb safety barriers are trees that keep you from going down a ravine or off the side of a mountain. If you leave the road surface you are in a rock or tree. Same for rally.

Uh... you know how I know you don't know squat about Lime Rock (or W2W racing)?

LOTS of run-off room...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLVw2heY8JI

D_Eclipse9916 wrote: Just to throw in a mix as someone else did. A Race car's definition. In my opinion, it is something caged, and built to a specific rule set, but I see HPDE/TT/Autox cars marked as "race cars" all the time. This bothers the E36 M3 outta me for NO reason.

Not-Racecar:

Not-Racecar:

Not-Racecar:

Not-Racecar:

Racecar:

Well looking at it from grumpy's POV, you're standing right in the middle of the GD track!! Try that at the bus stop at DIS or t17 at Sebring, dont forget to bring a cone to protect yourself, maybe you'll see why grumps wasn't really impressed! Now haha, get off my berking lawn!

Well... the next time something goes wrong and the car gets wrecked at an autocross or rallycross, just tell the insurance company, "it's was only autocross, not "real" racing..." and see what kind of reaction you get.

Good thing they have all that run-off room!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1qrpMh98u8

From the other car https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8tcxXGYdaY