I don't think of myself as being a particularly gifted driver but I can tell that since starting trackdays I have gotten much butter at not only car control but spacial awareness as well. I noticed the same when I got my girlfriend to start doing track stuff as well. I recommend it to everyone of my friends who drives because it does give you skills that others do not necessarily have. Im still scared as hell everytime I drive however due to the complete lack of competence in most drivers.
In reply to stuart in mn:
That's cheating 
As a Driver Educator I would love to add driving dynamics and vehicle control to the curriculum. Unfortunately that is not what the premise of DE is. Few states have a decent DE curriclum. Those that do spend a lot of time teaching really basic things, but also concepts like awareness and problem solving. There are costs to more education: financial and otherwise. The heart of the problem, in my opinion, is that teens on the whole are not capable of making the right choices without a lot of coaching and instruction. One skid school or advanced training school is not enough. Study after study shows that kids get an elevated and incorrect assessment of their skill level from taking such courses. They then over drive their actual skill level. The Europeans have been studying this and are making changes. We are FAR behind them in understanding this. For the most part parents want to be weaned quickly from the chore of chauffeuring kids around and are looking for the most cost effective and easiest short term way to do it. Legislation would change if it were otherwise. Yes, there are teens who get it. But in my experience they are the outliers who have good parents who are involved and encouraging, who are not afraid of getting their child behind the wheel sooner, and who take an active role in showing the right and wrong way to do things.
I really like to drive. I autocross, do ice time trials, and have done numerous track day schools and time trials. But I realize I'm in the minority. As Keith said, "...be a role model." If I could get parents to do the right thing in just the 10% of their life when junior is in the car it would make my life so much easier as an instructor.
Back to the original thread story. I got pulled over in Sandy Springs, Georgia once for "taking that corner a little fast huh buddy? No, what makes you think that? You're tires were squealing! Oh, was I over the limit? No? Okay, bye."
You think you've thought of everything, and then the car in front of you strikes a quart bottle of oil in the road and spikes the brakes.
I don't really give much thought to car control normally. Getting a bit sideways and correcting it just happens naturally now. I started autocrossing when I was still in college, and had the benefit of having a few really good teachers. I also did a skippy class once and that was an eye opener.
Anyway, while still in school we had a PE elective called high performance driving. Of course I took it. One of our instruction models was to drive on a wet skid pad and the instructor would use a control on his side of the car to put in into a spin. He never got mine to spin as I always caught it before it went around. I was the only one to do so. Everyone else would spin on and on. A few people, guys and girls, would throw their hands up and scream. Scary really.
Of course I spent years on track in mid engine cars, and I think everyone needs to do that. It teaches not only car control, but how to be gentle on the throttle and brakes, and how to properly control your reactions. Other types of cars, short of rear engine, don't come close to the same feedback.
stuart in mn wrote: When I was a kid I had my driver's training classes in January on snow covered roads in Minnesota, in a '72 Ford LTD.I think every kid should learn to drive on snow and ice.
I spent my formative years in an Olds Aeroback in the Canadian snow. Most of that sideways. It has stood me in good stead.
I don't take my driving ability for granted because I'm trying to become one of the fastest auto-x drivers in my region. I'm also trying to do some HPDE and some rallycross events also. I also practice drifting my car on a dirt road near my house and a couple of gravel roads to build up my skills, but mostly because it's really fun. It snows infrequently and very little where I live so I don't get a chance to practice drifting in the snow often, either
Private companies in theory make more money by the government making driving easy to do so practically everyone is able to drive to work, especially in the suburbs and rural areas. For the U.S. to become serious about driving like some countries in Europe, we would really have to make big changes in our culture, and our public transportation.
stanger_missle wrote: In reply to Spinout007: Wait, you had a cop complement you? Knowing my luck, he would of pulled me over for something.
With the cops in our county having reputation of shoot first, needless to say I was shocked.
Keith Tanner wrote: The cop was probably just glad he didn't have to clean up the mess.
This was my bet.
and it was more of a "good save back there" than an actual compliment. As I said I tend to drive more like a grandpa than anything else. mid 30's driving a S10 doesn't scream delinquent, I wasn't speeding but I sure didn't slow down either. Family has been in the area for almost 50 years living next door to a problem property that has regular visits by the sheriffs office, so I'm not too concerned about getting stopped near the house, but I'm glad I wasn't in thee Miata or the SVX. Those corners then become the playground. Although in either if those it probably would not have happened.
I drive around 100K a year and have recently become aware of my extremely heightened awareness in daily traffic, but, unfortunately, also how it has taken the hunger away from my performance driving, I need more track miles to even things out.
Most of my learning was self taught. Mainly via screw up. My third car that I purchased that wasn't a hand me down was a 94 Rx-7. At 21 years old I had NO business owning that car, but it taught me things. 1st car was a Z28, I learned about launching without breaking took finesse. Second was a Neon R/T, it taught me about cornering. Third was the 7, it taught me to be smooth. It did not tolerant ham fisted brute force driving. It would spin in an instant in the rain, or if you got stupid mid corner. Get it right though... Man it was a dream, was sorry to have to sell it but $$ and the mounting points convinced me it needed to go. A few years later I discovered miata's and learned how to listen to what the car wanted. Combine all that with some track time and it's still amazing to me how well I can do when I don't let my ego get in the way. Still want to do some autocrossing, I was pissed when I found out I had missed the fun run time frame at the challenge this year due to having to run into town. I really would liked to have given that course a shot. After taking the time to walk it, and break it down. It didn't seem as imposing as the last time I was out there and just rode along.
When you have a son who cannot walk, sit independently, or many other things it makes it very hard to take many things for granted. I am constantly appreciative that I can walk, run, sit, use all my extremities, etc, not to mention higher level things like driving. I am reminded every day to be thankful for what I have and what I can do and not worry that I am no Schumacher or Stig behind the wheel or a Michael Jordan on a basketball court. It's all about perspective. Don't mean to derail the thread, but it is what was brought to mind after reading it.
T.J. wrote: When you have a son who cannot walk, sit independently, or many other things it makes it very hard to take many things for granted. I am constantly appreciative that I can walk, run, sit, use all my extremities, etc, not to mention higher level things like driving. I am reminded every day to be thankful for what I have and what I can do and not worry that I am no Schumacher or Stig behind the wheel or a Michael Jordan on a basketball court. It's all about perspective. Don't mean to derail the thread, but it is what was brought to mind after reading it.
Upon reading the thread title my first thought was similar to T.J.'s.
Just yesterday I saw a car save itself from it's driver. A lady wasn't paying attention, and tried to change lanes into another car. No real big deal at first, the other driver saw her coming and gave her room. That didn't stop her from freaking out, over correcting, and aiming her car at the opposing wall. I was about four cars back on the four lane freeway, looking ahead and aware of my surroundings. She over corrected again, throwing the car into a vicious 70mph tank slapper. At that point her sawing at the wheel was doing more harm than good, she was way behind on her inputs. I looked for an out, as it was commute traffic and I was sure that all hell was about to brake loose. Miraculously, I watched as the car used its stability control to right itself, and she regained control. She took the next exit, no doubt to turn back for a new pair of undies. She had a look of terror and disbelief on her face.
Vigo wrote: The way i often tend to think about this is being frustrated that we refuse to force people to learn how to drive remotely well but we are spending a lot of time and energy figuring out how to automate it. Driving is in all seriousness my favorite thing to do in the world. I cant help but feel a lot of resentment towards the many people out there who DREAM of a world where we dont have to drive our own cars, because i fear eventually they are going to drag me into that false utopia as well, and i will either have to relocate my life somewhere else, or become a very bitter and unbalanced person that everyone will hate.
I can't upvote this enough. The tech and automotive industry spends so much time and effort trying to save the lowest common denominator that I can't help but think what else could be accomplished with that time and money.
I generally use the assumption that I'm not a talented driver until I ride with just about anyone I associate with on a regular basis or watch one of my co worker overturn one of our chase vehicles.
How much does a senator go for these days? An NRA type lobby for auto enthusiasts would be fun to watch. Maybe hire a lobbyist to write legislation making companies liable for crashes the automation doesn't save the driver from? That should sufficiently stifle all the innovation in that field. Well then off to bed before I make it onto a list.
Keith Tanner wrote:stuart in mn wrote: When I was a kid I had my driver's training classes in January on snow covered roads in Minnesota, in a '72 Ford LTD.I spent my formative years in an Olds Aeroback in the Canadian snow. Most of that sideways. It has stood me in good stead.
i drove my mom's 4 cylinder/4 speed 86 Mustang the first winter i had my license.. never got it stuck, never went in a ditch, and never spun it out.. then i moved on to big mid 70's rwd Monte Carlos and what not for a couple of winters after that.. you learn a lot about car control in one of those on ice with bald tires and no rear brakes...
i kept my skills honed on the gravel roads during the summer- there isn't much that is more fun then getting a 78 Cordoba with a worn out front suspension and blown shocks nice and slideways and not losing it on a twisty narrow gravel road at 60mph..
i've never been on a race track- unless you count a couple of dozen 1/8 mile drag strip passes a decade ago- but i've been driving by myself since i got my license on Oct 30, 1990 and haven't had an accident and i've only been in a ditch once when my truck was blown off an icy road by a semi passing the other direction... i've done some pretty miraculous saves more than a few times, and i've scared people riding with me when i didn't think i was even pushing anywhere near the limits of my car or my abilities..
Don't take them for granted. Taught myself car control on gravel roads, and I've also found that riding dirt bikes/quads is also an excellent way to learn 'seat of the pants' feel for what a machine is doing. I did one e-brake turn in the snow and my mother-in-law is convinced I'm some sort of insane Stig/stuntman/driving god.
vwcorvette guy above brought up the double-edged sword of teaching advanced car control to teens. Since I'm a guy who teaches skid recovery in a teen driver program I have this same concern. Yeah, youngsters will become more daring with increased confidence; no argument. But, I have observed endless cases of the 'two wheels off pavement/recovery results in skid' where a wreck is the result (both kids and adults). This happens because people don't know how to fix a tail-out slide. What I teach ingrains the instinct into the brain where it will automatically kick in when a crisis occurs. I still think having the skills is better. Kind of like teaching a kid to use a firearm: they can either use it properly, or dangerously. The decision is ultimately theirs.
I literally learned to drive in an '88 5spd Ranger in winter on the beginnings of a large development behind our house which before any homes were built amounted to a very nice racetrack. I learned to drift that entire circuit in the snow before drifting was a "thing".
And back then, cops didn't care what we did: driving on a frozen pond, sliding around at the mall after hours.
So now, I'll still pitch the back end of my truck out on a few places on my way home if the roads are wet.
I think nothing of inducing graceful oversteer, counter steering to the other side and just slithering up the road the next 300-400 feet (empty roads).
Stuff like that scares the E36 M3 out of whatever passengers I may have.
I'm not going to brag, but my background and experience is in line with everybody else here. I've done motorsports stuff for nearly 20 years, a lot of it in mid engine cars. My mother in law is a frustrating, timid driver. Knows nothing about car control, yet she's never put a scratch on a car, never had a ticket, never been in a ditch, and never backed into anything. She's managaged to avoid all the other oblivious idiots out there for 45 years. Objectively...my driving record is more colorful. Not bad, but not perfect. Techincally, she's a better driver than me.
Also...nearly everybody thinks they're a great driver. Just ask them. ;)
No, I know. I just wish everyone had to learn to drive in a foot of snow every day with a RWD car/truck. Saved me countless times, even makes racing easier.
The0retical wrote:Vigo wrote: The way i often tend to think about this is being frustrated that we refuse to force people to learn how to drive remotely well but we are spending a lot of time and energy figuring out how to automate it. Driving is in all seriousness my favorite thing to do in the world. I cant help but feel a lot of resentment towards the many people out there who DREAM of a world where we dont have to drive our own cars, because i fear eventually they are going to drag me into that false utopia as well, and i will either have to relocate my life somewhere else, or become a very bitter and unbalanced person that everyone will hate.I can't upvote this enough. The tech and automotive industry spends so much time and effort trying to save the lowest common denominator that I can't help but think what else could be accomplished with that time and money. I generally use the assumption that I'm not a talented driver until I ride with just about anyone I associate with on a regular basis or watch one of my co worker overturn one of our chase vehicles. How much does a senator go for these days? An NRA type lobby for auto enthusiasts would be fun to watch. Maybe hire a lobbyist to write legislation making companies liable for crashes the automation doesn't save the driver from? That should sufficiently stifle all the innovation in that field. Well then off to bed before I make it onto a list.
I tend to think opposite of this. I opened, owned, and ran a driving school for 2 years trying to educate teens better on how to drive. No one (very few) cares past 'did I get my license or not?' Even parents.
I am eagerly awaiting the day I will not have to drive anywhere, but instead get to spend my time driving where and when I want. If we automate everyday driving (which I may be different than most here, but I absolutely hate dealing with highway idiots camping in the left lane, stop and go traffic, and generally having every single car on the road at least 4x more capable than it needs to be - and 16x more capable than its driver).
To put shortly, I love driving, but I abhor commuting. Most americans only commute. As soon as america does not have to commute anymore, we will all be better off.
i.e. Just because you no longer HAVE to use a gun to put meat on the table, does not mean you CAN'T anymore. It likely just means you will have a lot more fun when you chose to.
rcutclif wrote:The0retical wrote:I tend to think opposite of this. I opened, owned, and ran a driving school for 2 years trying to educate teens better on how to drive. No one (very few) cares past 'did I get my license or not?' Even parents. I am eagerly awaiting the day I will not have to drive anywhere, but instead get to spend my time driving where and when I want. If we automate everyday driving (which I may be different than most here, but I absolutely hate dealing with highway idiots camping in the left lane, stop and go traffic, and generally having every single car on the road at least 4x more capable than it needs to be - and 16x more capable than its driver). To put shortly, I love driving, but I abhor commuting. Most americans only commute. As soon as america does not have to commute anymore, we will all be better off. i.e. Just because you no longer HAVE to use a gun to put meat on the table, does not mean you CAN'T anymore. It likely just means you will have a lot more fun when you chose to.Vigo wrote: The way i often tend to think about this is being frustrated that we refuse to force people to learn how to drive remotely well but we are spending a lot of time and energy figuring out how to automate it. Driving is in all seriousness my favorite thing to do in the world. I cant help but feel a lot of resentment towards the many people out there who DREAM of a world where we dont have to drive our own cars, because i fear eventually they are going to drag me into that false utopia as well, and i will either have to relocate my life somewhere else, or become a very bitter and unbalanced person that everyone will hate.I can't upvote this enough. The tech and automotive industry spends so much time and effort trying to save the lowest common denominator that I can't help but think what else could be accomplished with that time and money. I generally use the assumption that I'm not a talented driver until I ride with just about anyone I associate with on a regular basis or watch one of my co worker overturn one of our chase vehicles. How much does a senator go for these days? An NRA type lobby for auto enthusiasts would be fun to watch. Maybe hire a lobbyist to write legislation making companies liable for crashes the automation doesn't save the driver from? That should sufficiently stifle all the innovation in that field. Well then off to bed before I make it onto a list.
It's the old horses are now for recreation rather than work and transport argument. I'm certain it'll eventually be extended to cars as well. I can't say I don't agree to some extent, I was just being snarky above, however I'd much prefer a hybrid type approach which automates the freeways but makes you actually drive on the back roads. Not only will it save on the implementation costs, but at the rate the CADOT and PENNDOT do construction I'll be very well dead and gone before the twisties are gone.
The0retical wrote:rcutclif wrote:It's the old horses are now for recreation rather than work and transport argument. I'm certain it'll eventually be extended to cars as well. I can't say I don't agree to some extent, I was just being snarky above, however I'd much prefer a hybrid type approach which automates the freeways but makes you actually drive on the back roads. Not only will it save on the implementation costs, but at the rate the CADOT and PENNDOT do construction I'll be very well dead and gone before the twisties are gone.The0retical wrote:I tend to think opposite of this. I opened, owned, and ran a driving school for 2 years trying to educate teens better on how to drive. No one (very few) cares past 'did I get my license or not?' Even parents. I am eagerly awaiting the day I will not have to drive anywhere, but instead get to spend my time driving where and when I want. If we automate everyday driving (which I may be different than most here, but I absolutely hate dealing with highway idiots camping in the left lane, stop and go traffic, and generally having every single car on the road at least 4x more capable than it needs to be - and 16x more capable than its driver). To put shortly, I love driving, but I abhor commuting. Most americans only commute. As soon as america does not have to commute anymore, we will all be better off. i.e. Just because you no longer HAVE to use a gun to put meat on the table, does not mean you CAN'T anymore. It likely just means you will have a lot more fun when you chose to.Vigo wrote: The way i often tend to think about this is being frustrated that we refuse to force people to learn how to drive remotely well but we are spending a lot of time and energy figuring out how to automate it. Driving is in all seriousness my favorite thing to do in the world. I cant help but feel a lot of resentment towards the many people out there who DREAM of a world where we dont have to drive our own cars, because i fear eventually they are going to drag me into that false utopia as well, and i will either have to relocate my life somewhere else, or become a very bitter and unbalanced person that everyone will hate.I can't upvote this enough. The tech and automotive industry spends so much time and effort trying to save the lowest common denominator that I can't help but think what else could be accomplished with that time and money. I generally use the assumption that I'm not a talented driver until I ride with just about anyone I associate with on a regular basis or watch one of my co worker overturn one of our chase vehicles. How much does a senator go for these days? An NRA type lobby for auto enthusiasts would be fun to watch. Maybe hire a lobbyist to write legislation making companies liable for crashes the automation doesn't save the driver from? That should sufficiently stifle all the innovation in that field. Well then off to bed before I make it onto a list.
The problem with automating highways and not cars is that most crashes occur at lower speeds and close to home. Not on the interstates.
At this point, I kind of take it for granted.
As a young man I had the fire in my belly and raced.
Used to be kind of aggressive on the street, but always within my capabilities and my car's.
Race tracks are safe, the real world is DANGEROUS.
My friends and family have come to trust my driving.
I probably have well over 1M hiway miles by now.
Not likely I'll ever race again, but auto-X or HPDE would be fun.
When I taught my son and daughter to drive, I emphasized looking all around and anticipation,
and reading the 'body language' of the cars around them.
Wet deserted parking lots and skid control, etc.
The lessons seem to have worked.
For me it was the way I was taught. I consider my parents to be fantastic drivers, so having been taught by them I learned spacial awareness and defensive driving early on. Also the secret of getting SWMBO to give half a berkeley when she drives was buying a '14 Focus with the painted/machined wheels that are not able to fix if curbed, I have put the fear of God into that woman.
Most people on the road know how to operate a car, but very few know how to drive. The only reason that they regularly reach their destinations in one piece is because 99.9% of driving on the street is well below the limits of the car, and all of the poor driving habits are masked by the low speed and high reserve of grip. Watch other cars in traffic. They accelerate, brake and turn at the wrong times they are almost always on the wrong line (way early apexing every turn). Increase speed, or reduce grip (rain, snow) and everyday driving turns into crashes. That's why police chases are usually so short. The perp tries to "drive faster" to get away, plows into a parked car on the first turn. Today we got the lightest of rain here in Northern California- not really rain, more of a light mist. Crashes all over the place.
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