Driver-assisting technology, Good, Bad, or Evil Incarnate???

There has been almost no improvement in the death rate per billion miles driven in the last decade, and very little improvement since the turn of the century. 

We have had more agressive driver nannies in the last decade.  Statistics suggest they are a waste of time.

The death rate really stabilised after most cars had good seat belts,  seat belt laws,  better crash structures and air bags. 

Statistics suggest we are always going to manage to kill a few people while they are doing a dangerous thing.

I can't download the picture, so here is a link:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/US_traffic_deaths_per_VMT%2C_VMT%2C_per_capita%2C_and_total_annual_deaths.png

In reply to ebonyandivory :

I can remove my lugnuts without an impact gun.  I can get wheel bearings out of my hubs without my press.  I can do exhaust work without a lift.  I can also maintain my speed on the highway.

Every one of those things can be made much easier on me by using a different tool.  When I have to work harder at something, I am going to be fatigued quicker the harder I have to work.  That hard work could be physical work, like cavemaning wheel bearings with a sledge and a c-clamp, or it can be mental work like the attentiveness required to maintain speed on the interstate.  Either way, for about 99.9999999% of the people in the world, using a tool to take some of that effort will enable us to do that job longer and with fewer mistakes.  If we're properly using a tool that is properly constructed.

A 24" cheater bar tool just makes up for E36 M3ty mechanics who should be improving their muscles.

alfadriver said:

In reply to ebonyandivory :

The operative word in your statement is IF .

Even the best driver isn't there 100% of the time.  Unless you can honestly say that you don't think of work, news, family, sports scores, music lyrics,.. ever when you drive.  I know with 100% certainty that I can not say that I'm 100% there when I drive.  And consider myself lucky that when I'm not, something really bad has not happened to someone else, taking me out.

Again, people are people, and nobody is perfect.

Well said.  

Also, I might add that a 100% attentive driver has a limited bandwidth.  A computer can process any number of inputs.  Watch with complete attentiveness in a 360deg circle, lidar, radar, monitor each wheels slipping rate, yaw angle, etc.  The average car isn't there yet, but it will get there.

In reply to alfadriver :

Ive driven my wife's new Pacifica for hundreds of miles. Around town, on out-of-state vacations etc. and not ONE TIME did adaptive cruise control, adaptive high beams, park assist, traction control, lane departure, not once did they do a better job than I was doing with them off. They were FAR more distracting on than off. Almost constant beeping, lights blinking in my side mirrors, not-so-subtle tugs of the wheel at inappropriate times, trying to match speeds of vehicles that I was following, cutting power in a patch of snow, all things that were inappropriate for the situation.

The degree that these things help you drive is inversely proportionate to the quality of you as a driver.
 

Screw all of it. Again, just my opinion for myself.

In reply to ebonyandivory :

That does not mean that you have attention lapses every once in a while.  Just means that when you do, you have not been in a situation where it's been a problem.  Given the ~1 death/million miles drive, you are exactly the same as well over 90% of the drivers out there.

I have driven for probably close to 1,000,000 miles myself in my lifetime, and have had one accident.  And I am annoyed by the crash braking I've driven, too.

But I do appreciate making driving easier- as the occupied lane warning means I can look at the car in front of me instead of over my shoulder.  Which is a good thing.

Still, people can hate it all they want- it's still coming- and has been for decades.

In reply to Recon1342 :

At first I was against it. I swore "the feds will have to pry my license out of my cold, dead hands." 
 

and I still feel that way. 
 

but, I have come around to the idea that EVERYONE ELSE needs a self driver. Once everyone stops driving the roads will be a more predictable place. And that means I will be the rogue horseman out there weaving around the cattle. 
 

I can't wait. 

In theory, all of those things should help tremendously.

In reality, Autopilot sometimes runs into the side of a truck, cruise control causes high speed collisions, ABS failures increase braking distance, braking assistance fails and the like. 

Each of those failure modes has a likelihood and a severity. We each have to use our own calculus on how those risks weigh out. For now, I'm not ready to let autonomy take the wheel. There are too many people beating their chests about how AI is growing so smart, so fast. it's not nearly so simple. Silly broad statements like that make me doubt the rest of the proof.

I use cruise, have generally used ABS happily (although with a few notable exceptions, GMC bravada!), and have twice now been happily alerted to a frontal collision from the Bolt sensor (people doing the double tap thing leaving parking lots and such) but find the lane keeper only moderately useful. I'd love some rain sensing wipers. I really love the backup camera.

I think there is a phase of autonomy where things get really dangerous. This is likely to be a repeat of the era where people drove into lakes because the GPS told them to. The autonomy isn't good enough, but people think it is. People have been trained to think that the progress of technology is going to accelerate forever, and it will always be better. In truth, the anticipation of that has been overblown, and there are always fits and starts and winners and losers. Interestingly, Wall St is constantly looking for the next Amazon/Apple etc and as such, has participated in the self fulfilling prophecies a bit, making me seem like a negative nanny, because the crazy amount of funding people have thrown into the wind actually does make things work better and faster. 

I'm getting a bit off topic. We're not close to full autonomy being a real reliable thing. We're getting close to the middle phase being a dangerous thing.

its not going away.....But.....

it would be nice if "self driving" turned off at 20mph  at least for now  as its not ready for prime time,,,,,

And has anyone used "automatic parking"  ?   I  can park  fine as I have had a full size van for decades ,  but I can see AutoPark  as a plus if it works 110 % of the time , because if AutoPark makes a mistake and hits something , I have to pay the damage  not the car maker.

and yes "get off my lawn"

_ said:

In reply to Recon1342 :

At first I was against it. I swore "the feds will have to pry my license out of my cold, dead hands." 
 

and I still feel that way. 
 

but, I have come around to the idea that EVERYONE ELSE needs a self driver. Once everyone stops driving the roads will be a more predictable place. And that means I will be the rogue horseman out there weaving around the cattle. 
 

I can't wait. 

As long as you realize that there are millions of people who think exactly the same way... which puts you into their bin of requiring driver aids.  

That stuff doesn't distract me at all. I see it as assistance. Yes, I'm a good driver but when I can have further help from the highly brain attentive task of driving it sure will save me some energy. I just drove over 3k miles in my excursion (cruise control doesn't work), it was physically and mentally exhausting. I've done the same exact drive with a car that had all those nannies and I wasn't nearly as worn out.

The nannies might be more distracting to those who are easily distracted while driving, might be onto something here!

I find it funny that motorsport enthusiast and racers think they're a better driver on public roads than people who don't participate in those activities. That's a false sense of security and false sense of your abilities. Ha!

Do I like them? Yes and no. I don't like them for me, I  don't like driving with anything beyond ABS and mid-2000s traction/stability control. I really like them for all the other idiots on the road who barely understand the correlation between the circle thingy and the direction of their 3 row, Harley Davudson edition, 9ft tall, take 1 person to work mobile. I call them idiots because I ride a motorcycle (defensively) some days and I pay a fair bit of attention to stupid things cage drivers do around me. Cell phones, make up, doublecheese(plant)burgers, both hands off the wheel gesticulating as part of conversation, etc... Those morons need all the help they can get to not kill me. 

Driving isn't about driving, it's the chore that exists between where you are and where you want to be. So they sell you gadgets to entertain you while other gadgets keep you between the lines during the hassle of driving. I am in the minority that doesn't welcome our fully, always connected, information harvesting corporate AI overlords. For those that are already welcoming all of the benevolent offerings of Google and Amazon into our homes, because light switches are like so like hard to like switch ya know... Well it will continue to march "forward" because the majority of us want it and will pay lots of money for it. The companies make billions selling it, so they have no reason to stop, and we consumers happily gobble it up and ask for more because we're not eager to go back to the days of flipping our own light switches, wearing a watch, or looking up to see if we're still in the lane or even still on the road.

ebonyandivory said:

In reply to alfadriver :

Ive driven my wife's new Pacifica for hundreds of miles. Around town, on out-of-state vacations etc. and not ONE TIME did adaptive cruise control, adaptive high beams, park assist, traction control, lane departure, not once did they do a better job than I was doing with them off. They were FAR more distracting on than off. Almost constant beeping, lights blinking in my side mirrors, not-so-subtle tugs of the wheel at inappropriate times, trying to match speeds of vehicles that I was following, cutting power in a patch of snow, all things that were inappropriate for the situation.

The degree that these things help you drive is inversely proportionate to the quality of you as a driver.
 

Screw all of it. Again, just my opinion for myself.

 

Sadly, no amount of attentiveness can stop someone inattentive (or intoxicated) from plowing into you sitting at a stoplight. 

Sadly, your capabilities as a driver cant stop your wife, sister, father, mother, brother, etc from plowing into someone at a stoplight.

This is why I am a proponent of autonomous vehicles. I am sure pilots didnt appreciate autopilot programs initially either, but I sure as hell love them.

wae said:

In reply to ebonyandivory :

I can remove my lugnuts without an impact gun.  I can get wheel bearings out of my hubs without my press.  I can do exhaust work without a lift.  I can also maintain my speed on the highway.

Every one of those things can be made much easier on me by using a different tool.  When I have to work harder at something, I am going to be fatigued quicker the harder I have to work.  That hard work could be physical work, like cavemaning wheel bearings with a sledge and a c-clamp, or it can be mental work like the attentiveness required to maintain speed on the interstate.  Either way, for about 99.9999999% of the people in the world, using a tool to take some of that effort will enable us to do that job longer and with fewer mistakes.  If we're properly using a tool that is properly constructed.

A 24" cheater bar tool just makes up for E36 M3ty mechanics who should be improving their muscles.

I can’t agree with that. You are only counting physical exertion as “work”. Mental strain can cause fatigue as well. 

I’ve been sitting around the house for the last 2 weeks getting fat and eating sugar cookies. I am lethargic and dull. There’s no way I am a better driver right now than when the adrenaline is pumping. 

Theres a balance. Driving aids can help reduce fatigue, or they can create mental fatigue and dim-wittedness through lethargy and disengaging the driver. 

When my daughter learned to driver an automatic, she was an awful driver. It hired her, and she was innattentive. I switched her to a manual car and voila!  She became a really excellent  driver over night. 

Accident avoidance is nice, but engaging the driver is really important. At least until we are fully autonomous. 

yupididit said:

That stuff doesn't distract me at all. I see it as assistance. Yes, I'm a good driver but when I can have further help from the highly brain attentive task of driving it sure will save me some energy. I just drove over 3k miles in my excursion (cruise control doesn't work), it was physically and mentally exhausting. I've done the same exact drive with a car that had all those nannies and I wasn't nearly as worn out.

The nannies might be more distracting to those who are easily distracted while driving, might be onto something here!

You realize those things are supposed to distract you right? Do you think you're NOT supposed to hear the frenetic beeping? Do you think the blinking lights aren't supposed to attract your attention? They're called "alerts" or "warnings" for a reason. And they do those things very well.

ebonyandivory said:

You realize those things are supposed to distract you right? Do you think you're NOT supposed to hear the frenetic beeping? Do you think the blinking lights aren't supposed to attract your attention? They're called "alerts" or "warnings" for a reason. And they do those things very well.

I don't get it.  I put like 300 miles on my mom's outback last week.  If I stay in my lane, don't tailgate or get near a collision, none of the warnings engage.  Its not distracting because I'm not in danger/endangering anyone else.

Sure, if you cross the double yellow, or almost rear end someone it will beep at you.  If you are doing these things regularly, you are not a very attentive driver, or you are driving like an shiny happy person.

The gf has a newer Focus. The dash display has a popup notification to tell you that the engine is On. Why? Maybe this has to do with the push start, or maybe it's user training for a smoother transition to EVs. Either way, it lowers the bar for how much you need to know about the death machine you're technically operating. It caters to operators who won't be bothered to take driving seriously but still have money in their pocket that Ford wants. The barrier to driving is incredibly low and it shows in everything that we see on the roads and in cars because, at the end of the day, Audi wants your money more than they will ever care about some notion of a pure driving experience or having educated drivers. 

These drivers aids ARE NOT tools. The vehicle is. 
 

Take a hammer for instance. The hammer is the tool. The hammer makes pounding nails easier on me than using a rock or a fist. These drivers aids in this instance would allow me to pound nails with the hammer (ie: tool) without looking at the nail. 
 

I can use the tool (hammer) just fine. I don't need technology to allow me to pound nails with my eyes closed or while dipping McNuggets into my honey mustard.

In reply to ProDarwin :

So you never move over to avoid a roadkill? You don't drift over a bit to avoid broken asphalt or a pothole? You don't move slightly away from those innumerable people that like to drive on the dividing line? You've never has to slide to one side or another because of a cardboard box or some other debris was in the road? You've never edged over for an emergency vehicle passing you in one direction or the other?

And that's just for Lane Departure. That's not even mentioning the beeps and lights every single time another car overtakes you on the highway.

And maybe your mom's Subaru isn't as intrusive as the new Pacifica? Just a thought.

For some reason I see a bit of a difference between systems like ABS, TCS, and Stability Control versus things like blind spot monitoring and lane departure. I know that all of these systems a nominally there to prevent and accident an event were circumstances exceed the drivers skill or attention level.  I know I've been caught off guard and both types of systems have saved me from having to call up my insurance agent as well. I'm happy to have the systems on any car that is intended for road use, but I also want the ability to turn them off at my discretion. 

It does feel like systems that work as a substitute or supplement for where the driver keeps their eyes are a greater risk lowering the overall attention people give to driving. I do think modern cars give a greater sense of safety to the average driver as well. Higher ride heights and belt lines do give a sense of security that older cars don't tend to. It also compounds the need for blind spot monitoring, since sight lines are atrocious for many new cars.  It certainly feels like people are less vigilant on the road these days, but I'm not sure if I would correlate that with new drivers aids or the ubiquity of smart phones.

My personal experience is that I almost never find myself distracted from the task of driving when I am driving in my 2002 or E34 wagon. Both are manuals, have no stereo, and hardly ever have anyone other than myself in them. I find myself occasionally distracted in my E39 M5, with it's working stereo and wife and kids in toe. I find myself making the most mistakes when I', in our Kia Sedona, which has the most technology by far. Maybe that's just a personal quirk of mine. I do find it harder to focus on driving if the vehicle itself is less engaging to drive. 

When you couple that with the level of driver education and training, it really is a wonder that there are not more fatalities. Overall, I think the systems would be great if everyone took driving even remotely as seriously as the members of this forum.

In reply to ebonyandivory :

Doesn’t matter. They are here to stay. Adapt. Deal with it. 

SVreX said:

In reply to ebonyandivory :

Doesn’t matter. They are here to stay. Adapt. Deal with it. 

I'll ask you to point out where I said anything to the contrary. Also, comments like that are only meant to end debate while adding nothing to the thread. I have a feeling you are very selective of your use of it.

ebonyandivory said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

So you never move over to avoid a roadkill? You don't drift over a bit to avoid broken asphalt or a pothole? You don't move slightly away from those innumerable people that like to drive on the dividing line? You've never has to slide to one side or another because of a cardboard box or some other debris was in the road? You've never edged over for an emergency vehicle passing you in one direction or the other?

Yes, but none of those are constant things.  They are events that happen time to time and I deviate from my lane to accommodate.  A beep to go along with each of those events doesn't bother me at all.

On a related note, my mom's car actually has a system where it will beep at you if the light turned green and there are no cars in front of you and you aren't going.  I wish all cars had this.  

ebonyandivory said:

yupididit said:

That stuff doesn't distract me at all. I see it as assistance. Yes, I'm a good driver but when I can have further help from the highly brain attentive task of driving it sure will save me some energy. I just drove over 3k miles in my excursion (cruise control doesn't work), it was physically and mentally exhausting. I've done the same exact drive with a car that had all those nannies and I wasn't nearly as worn out.

The nannies might be more distracting to those who are easily distracted while driving, might be onto something here!

You realize those things are supposed to distract you right? Do you think you're NOT supposed to hear the frenetic beeping? Do you think the blinking lights aren't supposed to attract your attention? They're called "alerts" or "warnings" for a reason. And they do those things very well.

Um they don't go off for no reason. Only those blind spot thing lights up but thats hardly distracting. If they go off as often as you say then you probably need them more than you think lol

The primary goal is to maximize profits for the industry players.

To this end,the need is to remove the meat sack as a variable in the transportation industry.  Cars will take more of the control and reduce the opportunity for human error.

Expect cars to start arriving with an expiry date; Much like Japan where a car is almost impossible to keep on the road past its first three years, expect cars to phase out as their navigation systems become obsolete.

Where it ends, I suspect, is with the end of individual car ownership. My sin-in-law works for So-Car in Korea and already has me questioning the rational for owning my own fleet of cars.

My thoughts are that we will also see some kind of a revolution in the insurance industry as fewer drivers subscribe and the fleet owners become the major liability customers. If there are only three or four transportation providers, then we wont need hundreds of insurance companies. Car dealers will also go the way of the Dodo for much the same reason.

Lets check back in 20 years.

SVreX said:

wae said:

In reply to ebonyandivory :

I can remove my lugnuts without an impact gun.  I can get wheel bearings out of my hubs without my press.  I can do exhaust work without a lift.  I can also maintain my speed on the highway.

Every one of those things can be made much easier on me by using a different tool.  When I have to work harder at something, I am going to be fatigued quicker the harder I have to work.  That hard work could be physical work, like cavemaning wheel bearings with a sledge and a c-clamp, or it can be mental work like the attentiveness required to maintain speed on the interstate.  Either way, for about 99.9999999% of the people in the world, using a tool to take some of that effort will enable us to do that job longer and with fewer mistakes.  If we're properly using a tool that is properly constructed.

A 24" cheater bar tool just makes up for E36 M3ty mechanics who should be improving their muscles.

I can’t agree with that. You are only counting physical exertion as “work”. Mental strain can cause fatigue as well. 

I’ve been sitting around the house for the last 2 weeks getting fat and eating sugar cookies. I am lethargic and dull. There’s no way I am a better driver right now than when the adrenaline is pumping. 

Theres a balance. Driving aids can help reduce fatigue, or they can create mental fatigue and dim-wittedness through lethargy and disengaging the driver. 

When my daughter learned to driver an automatic, she was an awful driver. It hired her, and she was innattentive. I switched her to a manual car and voila!  She became a really excellent  driver over night. 

Accident avoidance is nice, but engaging the driver is really important. At least until we are fully autonomous. 

Absolutely agreed that attentiveness is "work" and can cause fatigue.  See bolded section above.

Also agreed that driver engagement is important and I think a large part of that is driver education and how the driving aids are designed and implemented.  Telling people that you don't have to pay attention anymore because the new 6000SUX has the latest NoCrashInator on board is encouraging people to use those aids improperly.  On the other hand, knowing that if the little red light is on in my lower-left peripheral vision I should just keep my eyes forward and not try to change lanes right now does help me avoid rear-ending a car that stops short in front of me while I've got my head turned looking for a car.

(not that you shouldn't always shoulder check before making a lane change - but if you already know there's a car there, then no need to look because you're not going to change lanes right now, which means one fewer time that your head is facing a different direction than you're traveling)