E15 Coming to a Gas Station Near You!

In reply to chaparral :

Why such low octane for power tool fuel?  Most lawnmowers, etc. need more octane than that, I think.  Knock margins tend to be worse in an air cooled engine, hence why many of them are fairly low compression. 

1) Most lawn equipment has very low compression and doesn't need high-octane fuel

2) Since it's untaxed it needs to not run well in a car

3) It would basically be an ethanol-free version of the winter rural blend

RevRico said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Must be getting parts from the same place I got parts for my Tecumseh carbs. Less than a weekend from brand new to useless. 

Do some searching, I forgot the name of the website, but I found one that broke down ethanol free gas availability by state and county.

I don't have to worry about searching for ethanol free.  I'm in boat country, every rich guy and his brother has a 35 foot boat they need to fill up every weekend so every third or fourth station bigger than 6 pumps has a dedicated ethanol free station. 

alfadriver said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Is it a gasket problem or a metal problem?  If it's a rubber/gasket problem, solutions for that have been around for decades.  If the metal is breaking down, that's different- since it wasn't developed for the fuel.  

Guy, they don't make ethanol resistant carb kits for the Carter YFA.  If they did I'm fairly sure that Mike The Carb Guy would have said "yes, you need this kit" last time I ordered from him. 

I don't know any better carb site for that carb.  I'd love to find an ethanol resistant version, so if you know of a better site...

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I'd notice, for sure.  They don't make an ethanol resistant carb kit for my Mustang, and I suspect the fuel pump is also susceptible to it (although that might be because it predated E10 and hadn't been run in a while.)

I've had brand new carb kits go bad in a month or two running E10.

Very much a minority in this, though.

If you're having that much problem with Ethanol. ( which is basically booze ) I'd hate to see the problems you'd have with Methanol. ( basically made from coal) 

Methanol  does all those things you mention.  When we used Methanol in the Offy Powered Sprint car  we'd take the fuel  out of the car and put it in specially lined tanks. Then go through the whole fuel system  with a shop rag coated with an oil. ( looked like gun oil to me but came in unlabeled square cans.).  And wipe down any surface that had been n contact with the fuel. 

Failure to do that meant the next time we went racing everything that hadn't been oiled down  was crusty.  

alfadriver said:

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I'd notice, for sure.  They don't make an ethanol resistant carb kit for my Mustang, and I suspect the fuel pump is also susceptible to it (although that might be because it predated E10 and hadn't been run in a while.)

I've had brand new carb kits go bad in a month or two running E10.

Very much a minority in this, though.

That still happens?   Brand new carbs?  IMHO, that's a fault of the carb and pump maker as opposed to the fuel.  Maybe 20 years ago, blaming the fuel would be more "ok"- but it's been the nominal fuel in the US for so long that it realistically can't be blamed anymore.  We spend thousands of hours making sure new cars are robust to the fuels available in the US- so carb companies should be more than capable of doing the same.  It's been almost 20 years since E10 has been the nominal fuel, and almost 50 since it was first put into fuel blends- no longer is it a surprise or shock to be used as a fuel.

Basically 100% ethanol is 200 proof booze. That Sounds a lot more like the effects of Methanol than ethanol.  

frenchyd said:

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I'd notice, for sure.  They don't make an ethanol resistant carb kit for my Mustang, and I suspect the fuel pump is also susceptible to it (although that might be because it predated E10 and hadn't been run in a while.)

I've had brand new carb kits go bad in a month or two running E10.

Very much a minority in this, though.

If you're having that much problem with Ethanol. ( which is basically booze ) I'd hate to see the problems you'd have with Methanol. ( basically made from coal) 

Methanol  does all those things you mention.  When we used Methanol in the Offy Powered Sprint car  we'd take the fuel  out of the car and put it in specially lined tanks. Then go through the whole fuel system  with a shop rag coated with an oil. ( looked like gun oil to me but came in unlabeled square cans.).  And wipe down any surface that had been n contact with the fuel. 

Failure to do that meant the next time we went racing everything that hadn't been oiled down  was crusty.  

They don't sell methanol fuel at the local Suwanee Swifty so I guess I won't have that problem?

Mr_Asa said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Is it a gasket problem or a metal problem?  If it's a rubber/gasket problem, solutions for that have been around for decades.  If the metal is breaking down, that's different- since it wasn't developed for the fuel.  

Guy, they don't make ethanol resistant carb kits for the Carter YFA.  If they did I'm fairly sure that Mike The Carb Guy would have said "yes, you need this kit" last time I ordered from him. 

I don't know any better carb site for that carb.  I'd love to find an ethanol resistant version, so if you know of a better site...

And I'm saying that the last 30 years is more than enough time to re-do the kit so that it's robust to E10.  I personally find it lame that they have not updated the materials.

I'm more worried about modern '90s EFI cars that were designed for E0 than I am ancient carbureted ones.  The problems with carburetors are well known and I can't imagine much worse with E15 than E0.  But what about my 1991 Miata?  It's been just fine with E10, but I don't know enough to know about E15.  That's going to effectively lean out the mixture even more than E10, which is already leaner than E0.  Is that a problem?  Am I overthinking it?  What about all the cars from the 2000s that explicitly state that E10 is permissible, but E15 is not?

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I'd notice, for sure.  They don't make an ethanol resistant carb kit for my Mustang, and I suspect the fuel pump is also susceptible to it (although that might be because it predated E10 and hadn't been run in a while.)

I've had brand new carb kits go bad in a month or two running E10.

Very much a minority in this, though.

How old is your Mustang?

My 1972 Thunderbird's owner's manual specifically stated that thr car was good for "gasohol", which is what E10 used to be called.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

How can ethanol be so cheap?   
if you want to buy a gallon of denatured alcohol. 98% ethanol 2% denaturing  ingredient.  It currently sells for $36 on line. 
 A 55 gallon drum is $1099.  
Yet across the street they sell 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline for $2.69/9 

Berck said:

I'm more worried about modern '90s EFI cars that were designed for E0 than I am ancient carbureted ones.  The problems with carburetors are well known and I can't imagine much worse with E15 than E0.  But what about my 1991 Miata?  It's been just fine with E10, but I don't know enough to know about E15.  That's going to effectively lean out the mixture even more than E10, which is already leaner than E0.  Is that a problem?  Am I overthinking it?  What about all the cars from the 2000s that explicitly state that E10 is permissible, but E15 is not?

A lot of cars from at least the mid 90s mention E10 in the manual and just say not to use more than 10% ethanol.  Pretty much anything with an O2 sensor will add extra fuel when running E10 or E15, it's just a question of when it runs into the adaptive limits and starts complaining.  And whether there are any non-compatible parts in the fuel system. 

In reply to rslifkin :

Right.  So where are the adaptive limits? Pretty sure E85 is over them? And why the E10 limit--because it's all that was tested with, or do manufacturers have a more sophisticated reason for the limit?  I was thinking about the fact that the Miata spends a lot of time in open loop mode where it ignores the O2 sensor because its ancient ECU can't react fast enough, but guessing it probably runs so rich in that state that E15 is fine?

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to alfadriver :

No, not brand new carbs.  Old old carbs.  Carter YFA 1BBLs.  I've yet to find an ethanol safe version. 

Which parts are not ethanol safe ?

there is a company nearby that makes European carb kits , I know he die cuts his own gaskets , I would think you could laser cut them now.

contact Royzeinc.com and ask him 

In reply to Berck :

Most OBDII systems will adjust up to about 30% extra fuel, IIRC.  Not sure about older stuff, however.  As far as open loop, most will still apply the long term fuel trim value to adjust the open loop tables (at least for OBDII stuff).  So if it's been steadily adding 8% extra fuel across the board, it'll do that in open loop too. 

I'm not sure why the limit was set.  It may be an actual compatibility concern, but it's also likely just all they tested with at the time.  E85, etc. wasn't really on the table in the 90s. 

Berck said:

In reply to rslifkin :

Right.  So where are the adaptive limits? Pretty sure E85 is over them? And why the E10 limit--because it's all that was tested with, or do manufacturers have a more sophisticated reason for the limit?  I was thinking about the fact that the Miata spends a lot of time in open loop mode where it ignores the O2 sensor because its ancient ECU can't react fast enough, but guessing it probably runs so rich in that state that E15 is fine?

When E15 was first introduced about 20 years ago it was heavily tested by the federal government  and determined to be safe for post 2001 cars. 
       My guess is that as alcohol cools the combustion  the more alcohol in the fuel with the resultant cooler  flame the less potential there is for  valve burning.  

rslifkin said:

Berck said:

I'm more worried about modern '90s EFI cars that were designed for E0 than I am ancient carbureted ones.  The problems with carburetors are well known and I can't imagine much worse with E15 than E0.  But what about my 1991 Miata?  It's been just fine with E10, but I don't know enough to know about E15.  That's going to effectively lean out the mixture even more than E10, which is already leaner than E0.  Is that a problem?  Am I overthinking it?  What about all the cars from the 2000s that explicitly state that E10 is permissible, but E15 is not?

A lot of cars from at least the mid 90s mention E10 in the manual and just say not to use more than 10% ethanol.  Pretty much anything with an O2 sensor will add extra fuel when running E10 or E15, it's just a question of when it runs into the adaptive limits and starts complaining.  And whether there are any non-compatible parts in the fuel system. 

If you go back to when the Fed was testing E15. They clearly said anything post 2001 was fine for E15. 

rslifkin said:

In reply to Berck :

Most OBDII systems will adjust up to about 30% extra fuel, IIRC.  Not sure about older stuff, however.  As far as open loop, most will still apply the long term fuel trim value to adjust the open loop tables (at least for OBDII stuff).  So if it's been steadily adding 8% extra fuel across the board, it'll do that in open loop too. 

I'm not sure why the limit was set.  It may be an actual compatibility concern, but it's also likely just all they tested with at the time.  E85, etc. wasn't really on the table in the 90s. 

I have seen +52% STFT on a Chevy truck before...

Berck said:

In reply to rslifkin :

Right.  So where are the adaptive limits? Pretty sure E85 is over them? And why the E10 limit--because it's all that was tested with, or do manufacturers have a more sophisticated reason for the limit?  I was thinking about the fact that the Miata spends a lot of time in open loop mode where it ignores the O2 sensor because its ancient ECU can't react fast enough, but guessing it probably runs so rich in that state that E15 is fine?

E10 is the limit because a study 20 years ago suggested that we can't grow more corn to support more than that.  Which is a good reason to part with the corn mandate for ethanol.

For newer cars, E10 is the nominal fuel, so adjusting for E15 is really easy.  For older cars where E0 is the nominal fuel, E15 isn't that far away, and I think the EPA actually tested for E20 to check older car robustness to the much higher limit.  And I'm pretty sure that E10 actually means E5 to E15 at the pump.

Older cars should be learning an adjustment that applies to WOT, BTW.  Should- I know the cars I worked on did.

In reply to alfadriver :

I would think that the cars that don't apply fuel trim to closed loop are running so eye wateringly rich that E15-E20 would actually benefit them.

californiamilleghia said:

Mr_Asa said:

In reply to alfadriver :

No, not brand new carbs.  Old old carbs.  Carter YFA 1BBLs.  I've yet to find an ethanol safe version. 

Which parts are not ethanol safe ?

there is a company nearby that makes European carb kits , I know he die cuts his own gaskets , I would think you could laser cut them now.

contact Royzeinc.com and ask him 

Diaphragm for the accelerator pump.  Has a little plate and shaft riveted onto it so unfortunately it isnt as simple as just getting a new one cut.

alfadriver said:

Berck said:

In reply to rslifkin :

Right.  So where are the adaptive limits? Pretty sure E85 is over them? And why the E10 limit--because it's all that was tested with, or do manufacturers have a more sophisticated reason for the limit?  I was thinking about the fact that the Miata spends a lot of time in open loop mode where it ignores the O2 sensor because its ancient ECU can't react fast enough, but guessing it probably runs so rich in that state that E15 is fine?

E10 is the limit because a study 20 years ago suggested that we can't grow more corn to support more than that.  Which is a good reason to part with the corn mandate for ethanol.

For newer cars, E10 is the nominal fuel, so adjusting for E15 is really easy.  For older cars where E0 is the nominal fuel, E15 isn't that far away, and I think the EPA actually tested for E20 to check older car robustness to the much higher limit.  And I'm pretty sure that E10 actually means E5 to E15 at the pump.

Older cars should be learning an adjustment that applies to WOT, BTW.  Should- I know the cars I worked on did.

Pretty sure 20 years ago farmers weren't generally using the dense planting they do today.  I believe most was row planted back then.  
  Still see a lot of fallow fields  where farmers aren't planting because the price of corn is too low. 
   

EvanB said:

Sheetz around here (central Ohio) has E15 88 octane. It is about 20 cents cheaper per gallon than E10 87 octane. 

I noticed the same thing a couple weeks ago at a Sheetz in West Virginia. Kind of confused me that the 88 was cheaper than the 87 lol.

I was at the station today that sells E0 "boat gas." It's 90 octane for $4.99 and road going E10 was $3.78

I was already running my Tahoe on E15 in Iowa because it was around 10 cents a gallon cheaper. 0 issues. Of course my Tahoe is supposed to be a flex fuel truck in theory.