I've already got a solid 1985 E30 that was almost free. It's a slow, 4-door 318i with an open diff but at least it has a manual transmission. I originally bought the E30 as a disposable second car, but from driving it around, I grew to love it. While searching for an E30 parts car, I noticed that cheap E30s are thin on the ground these days while cheap E36s pretty much grow on trees. Would it be dumb to sell the E30 and replace it with a cheap E36?
Why would you replace the car you have if it can do what you want it to do?
E36 is definitely a quicker HPDE car out of the box, pretty much without exception (maybe if you're comparing an E30 M3 to an E36 318i)...my local group would likely not even let you run in a stock E30 318i, it would be dangerously slow around Road America.
If I were you I'd take advantage of the flat-brim hat tax E30s are currently enjoying and make the upgrade.
In reply to SlickDizzy:
"Flatbrim hat tax" That was hilarious and enough of a reason for me to take your advice, cash the E30 and get an E36. Thanks!
SlickDizzy wrote: E36 is definitely a quicker HPDE car out of the box, pretty much without exception (maybe if you're comparing an E30 M3 to an E36 318i)...my local group would likely not even let you run in a stock E30 318i, it would be dangerously slow around Road America. If I were you I'd take advantage of the flat-brim hat tax E30s are currently enjoying and make the upgrade.
e30 318i isn't a rocket ship, but it's light and can take corners and it's not really any slower than any other vintage sports sedan out there. I mean, it has pretty similar power to an NA Miata and weighs just a bit more in stock form. And that's talking about the early M10 cars. late e30 318 with the M42 can hang with M20 cars on some tracks.
Guess what group it is.
All that said, an e36 325i will be substantially quicker in pretty much every aspect. e36 318i is not terribly quick. Probably not much quicker than an M10 e30, to be honest.
irish44j wrote:SlickDizzy wrote: E36 is definitely a quicker HPDE car out of the box, pretty much without exception (maybe if you're comparing an E30 M3 to an E36 318i)...my local group would likely not even let you run in a stock E30 318i, it would be dangerously slow around Road America. If I were you I'd take advantage of the flat-brim hat tax E30s are currently enjoying and make the upgrade.e30 318i isn't a rocket ship, but it's light and can take corners and it's not really any slower than any other vintage sports sedan out there. I mean, it has pretty similar power to an NA Miata and weighs just a bit more in stock form. And that's talking about the early M10 cars. late e30 318 with the M42 can hang with M20 cars on some tracks. Guess what group it is. All that said, an e36 325i will be substantially quicker in pretty much every aspect. e36 318i is not terribly quick. Probably not much quicker than an M10 e30, to be honest.
When the slowest cars in your run group are a 128i, E36 M3, Cooper S, Spec Miata and your own E46 330ci, even a M42 318i is woefully underpowered.
IMO, YMMV, etc.
SlickDizzy wrote:irish44j wrote:When the slowest cars in your run group are a 128i, E36 M3, Cooper S, Spec Miata and your own E46 330ci, even a M42 318i is woefully underpowered. IMO, YMMV, etc.SlickDizzy wrote: E36 is definitely a quicker HPDE car out of the box, pretty much without exception (maybe if you're comparing an E30 M3 to an E36 318i)...my local group would likely not even let you run in a stock E30 318i, it would be dangerously slow around Road America. If I were you I'd take advantage of the flat-brim hat tax E30s are currently enjoying and make the upgrade.e30 318i isn't a rocket ship, but it's light and can take corners and it's not really any slower than any other vintage sports sedan out there. I mean, it has pretty similar power to an NA Miata and weighs just a bit more in stock form. And that's talking about the early M10 cars. late e30 318 with the M42 can hang with M20 cars on some tracks. Guess what group it is. All that said, an e36 325i will be substantially quicker in pretty much every aspect. e36 318i is not terribly quick. Probably not much quicker than an M10 e30, to be honest.
Yeah....so I meant to say "guess it depends what group it is" not "guess what group it is" lol....
Obviously any e30 is going to be slow if the track is full of corvettes or porsches or e92 M3s...just as my WRX would be slow on a track full of Vipers and GT-Rs
I would assume the OP would run with a club/group that would allow him to run with them. Having a "slowish" car doesn't disqualify one from doing track days for the most part, as long as you run with the appropriate group.
I've been tracking an S50 swapped e30 for several years and I love it. However, the advice I have is to start with an e36 (M3 if you can swing it). They are just a more capable starting point that doesn't need as many upgrades as the e30.
I told him he should sell the e30 and buy the answer, can somebody back me up on this. Tell people you own an mx5 race car not a miata so they don't think swmbo is a beard.
Find someone who will let you drive an e36. Both can be fast, cheap, good looking, reliable, etc.
I think both are great cars, but the e36 still has a chance of feeling like a fast car in a straight line. The 4 cylinder e36 probably does not qualify for that.
you might miss the character of the e30 you like so much though.
Aaaaaaand the e36 is (gasp) bigger and heavier.
what flares are those because I like.
Also I autoX with BMWCCA and I have to say none of the E30s even the stripped out race ones seem to come close to the E36's speed. And the E36s often beat out all the E46s and E90s etc still for top time of day. So it seems super capable. I also think they are some of the best sounding of the cars out there.
In reply to carbon:
Honestly these days there are a lot of arguments AGAINST the Miata as a cheap track toy, at least compared to an E36. NA values have risen significantly as decent ones get harder to find, and then the Miata needs a roll bar (and a hardtop too, depending on your organization) before they will even let you on track, then you're still down about 75HP compared to the BMW. Prices have fallen through the floor on E36s at the moment so they are really a lot more bang for the buck.
before I added an M50 to an E30.. I would consider doing it to a 318ti.. they are almost as light, but come stock with a better suspension than the e30
SlickDizzy wrote: In reply to carbon: Honestly these days there are a lot of arguments AGAINST the Miata as a cheap track toy, at least compared to an E36. NA values have risen significantly as decent ones get harder to find, and then the Miata needs a roll bar (and a hardtop too, depending on your organization) before they will even let you on track, then you're still down about 75HP compared to the BMW. Prices have fallen through the floor on E36s at the moment so they are really a lot more bang for the buck.
Plus the whole actually useful as a daily, can haul all your tires inside etc. I originally got a miata because its also one of the (top down) closest experiences I have found to riding motorcycles and actually being a part of your surroundings when I had to get rid of my bike after kid number 2. I still love the size of the NA but the E36 is hard to argue against.
Is the e36 rear subframe less of an issue than I thought it was? I was under the impression that every tracked e36 would sooner or later run into an issue with the unibody tearing apart where the rear subframe bolts in?
In reply to toconn:
Word on the street is that it's largely fine unless you're running R-compounds. The reinforcement isn't that hard to do either, when it comes down to it.
toconn wrote: Is the e36 rear subframe less of an issue than I thought it was? I was under the impression that every tracked e36 would sooner or later run into an issue with the unibody tearing apart where the rear subframe bolts in?
I dunno about every e36 subframe, but mine did (and I was running stock suspension on 'summer performance' tires).
Was about 12 hours of labor at a body shop to fix the issue in my case (remove all rear suspension and brakes and subframe, exhaust and fuel tank, cut out old mounts, weld in BMW replacements/reinforcements, and put it all back together). Really wasn't too bad. But it could easily DOUBLE the cost of a $2000 e36. I would've done it myself now, but it was a job over my head back then (and I had an HPDE that I already paid for coming up!)
The BMW specialist (BimmerHaus in Denver) advised me that usually the problem is the subframe bushings wear out, and then when not replaced they allow the subframe too much movement that allows it to gain too much momentum when it moves, and the mounts cannot take that extra load. So find a car with good mounts, and then replace the bushings right away. There are only 4 bushings, and you should be able to see the ripped subframe (if it is ripped) via visual inspection from under the car - you don't have to take anything off to see the problem, but you do have to know where to look.
BMW to my knowledge still sells the reinforcement/replacement stampings from the M3. right around 100 bucks I think. Probably not a bad idea to weld those puppies in preventative-ly anyway.
You can address the subframe issue before it breaks then its not that big of a deal and much cheaper
Or, just spend that money on an M3 to begin with and have a much better starting platform
^^^^^ Good information--- I'd trust what BimmerHaus has to say over any internet blather. Bob and Patti Tunnell (owners of BimmerHaus) have TWENTY NINE Solo II and ProSolo national championships between the two of them. Each time their E36 M3 wins a class--- they move up to the next faster class...and eventually win. It's pretty amazing what they've done with a production car.
They are also some of the most decent human beings you'll ever meet. Check out what they have been doing in Afghanistan in their free time---it's pretty amazing!
http://www.barekaub.com/
and to the OP--- The E36 is the more capable car, but the E30 has a unique feel, solidity and size. I'd lean towards the E36, as its now much easier to find inexpensive spares. The E36 is also a more stable platform if you decide to add more power.
My big mistake in buying an E30 is the fact I had substantial street/wrenching experience with a E36 (M3) prior.
In reply to M030: I would say that since you bought an E30 for almost free, keep it until you get tired of it, and just buy an E36 for a HPDE car. I have an E36, and if you don't buy one that had some recent important repairs, can set you back a good amount of money on repairs depending on how much you drive it.
IMHO, you will learn track craft faster in an E30 than an E36. It's easier to feel what's going on with the E30 chassis. It is materially lighter than an E36.
Most people need a summer or two of HPDEs to get a feel for driving and make some decisions about what kind of driver they want to be. Then you can start worrying about what kind of track car you want to get yourself into for the longer term. For now if I were you I would just get myself a set of summer performance tires to fit the stock wheels, and some high-heat brake pads and fluid. If you're REALLY set on doing something else, find an M20B25 to freshen up and drop in there.
If you do decide to get an E36, go ahead and get a decent M3, and change the radiator and water pump. The M50/M52 motor is less than you probably want for a longer-term track car. As long as you're going to put up with VANOS, you might as well get the M3 motor's additional power. And the M3 subframe is already reinforced, which saves you a somewhat tedious process welding those on yourself.
I'm about to start my third summer, driving my E21 with a 6 cylinder M20. And I'm going down a different rabbit hole. I have an E36 and a Ford 302 motor/driveline sitting in the lab for a little cross-breeding project.
Jamey_from_Legal wrote: Most people need a summer or two of HPDEs to get a feel for driving and make some decisions about what kind of driver they want to be. Then you can start worrying about what kind of track car you want to get yourself into for the longer term.
Truth. Don't limit to just HPDE, do any and all events that interest you.
Jamey_from_Legal wrote: I have an E36 and a Ford 302 motor/driveline sitting in the lab for a little cross-breeding project.
I did this exact swap with mine and drove it for a few years before selling it. Tons of fun, awesome noises. If you want to chat about it in more detail PM me, I did all the work myself and also autox'd and HPDE'd it. If I did I again I would NOT use the T5 trans. Really underwhelms the whole package.
So what yall are saying is that its better to buy an m3 than to weld on $100 reinforcements (that you can probably make at home if you already have a welder)? I thought this was grassroots motorsports!
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